Anybody tired of the Teacher's Strikes?

[Mad Mike]

And that is the root of the problem. It would be an interesting social experiment to see what happened when those at the public teat reached 51%. No political party could possibly win without saying that they would bow to the public sectors wishes. As the unions all battled each other and based their compensation on the other unions, it would probably be less than a decade before this had gone beyond the point of no return and the entire economy collapsed.

IMO (and I understand that many will not share this opinion) public sector jobs should pay less than their private sector counterparts. What you lose in dollars, you gain in stability (your employer isn't going to bounce cheques or disappear (apart from the IBM pay processing debacle)). If you want to drive a bmw, go work in the private sector. If you want a decent living wage and a chevy, your country wants you. This should apply to politicians too. Go back to the days where pillars of the community were elected and got a stipend of 20K for helping out. Politician should never have been allowed to become a career (especially with the ridiculous pension, severance pay if you don't get your contract renewed, double digit raises, etc).

The only part of Gov't that works like this are the Canadian Forces. The pay is commensurate with experience and effort, you can be fired if you don't pull your weight, you have fantastic benefits, training and security.

I'm not sure that PS jobs ought to be paid less than others, but I don't think they should be paid more, particularly when a fraction of that wage would attract the same workforce.

High wages and job protections are not necessarily the Public's friends either. Individually and together they discourage attrition (which has some goodness), however they also inhibit positive attrition -- meaning poor performers, and those with antiquated skills are saved to the detriment of the people they serve and the public purse.

 

[GreyGhost]

The only part of Gov't that works like this is the are the Canadian Forces. The pay is commensurate with experience and effort, you can be fired if you don't pull your weight, you have fantastic benefits, training and security if you do.

I'm not sure that PS jobs ought to be paid less than others, but I also think they should be paid more, particularly when a fraction of that wage would attract the same workforce.

High wages and job protections are not necessarily the Public's friends either -- not simply because of the cost to the public purse. Individually and together they discourage attrition (which has some goodness), however they also inhibit positive attrition -- meaning poor performers, and those with antiquated skills are saved to the detriment of the people they serve and the public purse.

You've got some typos in there but I think I know what you mean. Yes, the military functions much the way I think the rest of the public sector should (although I suspect they are on the low side and I wouldn't object to better compensation).

 

[ChrisCBR]

It is easy to stay consistent when stating facts instead of a narrative based on alternative facts or butthurt feelings...

Want to save money and improve education, stop funding religious schools.

lol love all your butthurt comments, your more butthurt than anyone here.

The idea that teachers dont "get paid" during the summer is one of the most laughable things Ive ever heard.
If I pay you 12 months salary but spread it over 10 months, you are getting paid for 12 months not 10.

Bottom line is, when you look at the actual hours the average teacher works a year, discount the value of their pension to today, add in their benefits, add in a correction factor for things such as job security, the fact they get their vacation at the optimal time (summer), the fact that they never work on holidays, their sick days etc and then adjust it to what the average full time person works per year, which is probably 1800-1900 hours and you will find the median compensation package is $130-150K!

Not all teachers have 5 years of education either.
Some of the older ones dont have a degree.

The 2 teachers I know both have 2 year college + 8 months teachers college. One teaches tech, the other music.
The tech one I know for sure got 5 years right off the bat on the pay grid.

Many teachers in this province do not know how good they have it.

I can agree with the stop funding religious schools.
Religion should be completely void from education, government etc.
Let the Catholic church pay, they have enough money.
Churches pay no tax and many of them prey on and scam people.
Ive seen it first hand. I know a family who owns a church. Very affluent people, luxury cars, homes, even a helicopter, yet their congregation is mainly lower class people of colour who are persuaded to give 10% of their salary to the church. Anyways thats another story

 

[Scuba Steve]

Well, if it doesn't make any difference, let's reduce teachers salaries to minimum wage.

It might help all the ones who are just in it for the money would quit and the ones who care would be left. Any job that has a huge (years long) waiting list to get in like teachers is obviously paying too much money. maybe cut until you have a shortage of applicants then start slowly increasing until there is a reasonable list.

 

[Mad Mike]

You've got some typos in there but I think I know what you mean. Yes, the military functions much the way I think the rest of the public sector should (although I suspect they are on the low side and I wouldn't object to better compensation).

The Forces pay pretty well today. Rank and file straight out of high school start at $36K, witnin 10 years $80K is easy. Officers get more, a first year Officer makes $68K, they can hit $100K within 10 years.

 

[crankcall]

The Armed forces don’t often organize a strike .


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com

 

[ChrisCBR]

It might help all the ones who are just in it for the money would quit and the ones who care would be left. Any job that has a huge (years long) waiting list to get in like teachers is obviously paying too much money. maybe cut until you have a shortage of applicants then start slowly increasing until there is a reasonable list.

They changed teachers college from 1 year to 2 years in an effort to curb the supply of teachers

 

[Mad Mike]

..
Bottom line is, when you look at the actual hours the average teacher works a year, discount the value of their pension to today, add in their benefits, add in a correction factor for things such as job security, the fact they get their vacation at the optimal time (summer), the fact that they never work on holidays, their sick days etc and then adjust it to what the average full time person works per year, which is probably 1800-1900 hours and you will find the median compensation package is $130-150K!

I know the numbers for York Region HS teachers. The mandated hours are 26.25/week , the average at the school my kids attended was 32/week in 2015. The mandated school year has 177 to 187 in class + 4 PA days. Doing the math using $100K as the average salary (it's actually closer to $111K with benefits)

Min 181 days x 5.25hrs/day = $105/hr
Typical 191 days x 6.4hrs/day = $81.80

 

[Mad Mike]

They changed teachers college from 1 year to 2 years in an effort to curb the supply of teachers

I don't think the supply of teachers should be managed like the Milk or Eggs Marketing boards.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Oh and the market forces comment? That's what we need a bunch of schools run like Walmart. For profit. Cheaper the better. ******* morons who think that market forces should control something that everyone needs.....everyone. How you like that market in the US for schools and healthcare?
Lets shoot for the bottom....

This.

And you know what, for the anti union crowd? THIS is what the trucking industry is now. Everyone wants everything for nothing. The last 2 decades have been an absolute race to the bottom with companies literally trampling other companies to cut rates to steal business.

And now, even people who have no actual clue about the industry can SEE the results. We are littered with garbage companies with garbage equipment hauling freight for garbage rates. Now the public gets to share the roads with all that garbage, and yes, all the resulting crashes, aggressive, careless, and clueless truck drivers as well.

Garbage in, Garbage out.

And you know what? I work for a union trucking company. We have good equipment and we have some of the best drivers in the industry working for our company...some with over 50 years accident free driving experience with this company ALONE, and hundreds of others with 25, 30..40 years. We are the guys that used to be considered the "knights of the road" back when the public had a great perception of the industry, because we deserved it.

But... In the last 20 years we've been slowly getting whittled away by the garbage companies that are hauling freight for less than our companies cost, much less leaving any room for profit. These companies pay their employees garbage wages, so again, garbage in..garbage out. The equipment isn't maintained properly (or at all), so you're rolling down the road on your motorcycles next to unsafe trucks.

Our terminal alone (and we are one of the smaller ones) used to have 40-50+ employees of which almost all were drivers. Now we have about 8 left, and there's a lot of question if our terminal will even be around in 5 more years.

"Market Forces"...? Or just a race to the bottom at the expense of the almighty dollar, quality be damned?

Do we really want that for our kids? Lowest common denominator, lowest bidder, who cares the result?

Really?

 

[AllistonGT]

IMO the greed in the public sector is based on the delusion that the government has money. The government doesn't have one red cent. Anything they spend comes out of someone else's pocket but the populous thinks otherwise.

I 100% agree with COL increases but if you're doing the same job as last year why should you get more money? I disagree with wage cuts as the victims can't pass those onto their mortgage holder etc.

If the stress burden of unruly kids is the problem why isn't the union fighting for that solution? If a kid is a brat kick the problem up the ladder until it lands in the lap of the minister of education.

A bit off the teacher bit but a buddy used to drive a school bus. Took crap from students, parents and principals all for a minimum wage income. Got cheated on hours as well. He would have had half the stress and twice the money delivering beer instead of precious children.

Better wages don't get you better workers in any business. If you have a needed but disgruntled employee and you give them more money to stay the solution only lasts about six months and they are disgruntled again.

What lifestyle does a particular job deserve? If you want to drop out of school be prepared to live in a basement apartment and drink cheap beer. Do teachers deserve 4000 square foot homes and BMWs?

What's wrong with life in an average house and a Chevy?

Our education system is a disastrous failure in one particular sector, reality. Wake up folks. We have to compete with China, India, Russia, the Pacific Rim etc.

It happens in uni as well. I know a PhD that wants a tenured position and is annoyed that she can't get one because all the other tenured PhD's don't want to give up their positions.

Blame it on Madison Avenue advertising. The purpose of most advertising is to make people unhappy with what they've got so they will buy more crap. If you have more than $1,000 in assets you're ahead of 95% of the world population.

Would any politician have the guts to tell a parent that school is to teach the three R's not soccer, manners, hygiene, etc.

Agree with all of this!

 

[GP_RZ]

So sick of them they teach kids these days a load of bs from climate change and to shoving things up their whahoo! Cant get any better!

 

[LePhillou]

It might help all the ones who are just in it for the money would quit and the ones who care would be left. Any job that has a huge (years long) waiting list to get in like teachers is obviously paying too much money. maybe cut until you have a shortage of applicants then start slowly increasing until there is a reasonable list.

After they sell their house and settle 2 hours outside of the gta where they can afford a house and then...can't come teach in the GTA cause it's too damn expensive, sure! You'll keep the most passionate about their jobs, just not in this area.

 

[ChrisCBR]

This.

And you know what, for the anti union crowd? THIS is what the trucking industry is now. Everyone wants everything for nothing. The last 2 decades have been an absolute race to the bottom with companies literally trampling other companies to cut rates to steal business.

And now, even people who have no actual clue about the industry can SEE the results. We are littered with garbage companies with garbage equipment hauling freight for garbage rates. Now the public gets to share the roads with all that garbage, and yes, all the resulting crashes, aggressive, careless, and clueless truck drivers as well.

Garbage in, Garbage out.

And you know what? I work for a union trucking company. We have good equipment and we have some of the best drivers in the industry working for our company...some with over 50 years accident free driving experience with this company ALONE, and hundreds of others with 25, 30..40 years. We are the guys that used to be considered the "knights of the road" back when the public had a great perception of the industry, because we deserved it.

But... In the last 20 years we've been slowly getting whittled away by the garbage companies that are hauling freight for less than our companies cost, much less leaving any room for profit. These companies pay their employees garbage wages, so again, garbage in..garbage out. The equipment isn't maintained properly (or at all), so you're rolling down the road on your motorcycles next to unsafe trucks.

Our terminal alone (and we are one of the smaller ones) used to have 40-50+ employees of which almost all were drivers. Now we have about 8 left, and there's a lot of question if our terminal will even be around in 5 more years.

"Market Forces"...? Or just a race to the bottom at the expense of the almighty dollar, quality be damned?

Do we really want that for our kids? Lowest common denominator, lowest bidder, who cares the result?

Really?

Your comparing the private sector for-profit trucking industry with the public sector service (doesnt generate revenue) teachers that are paid for by the taxpayer.

Does everyone have to be reminded in here that Ontario is the most indebted sub-sovereign state in the world?

What is your solution to the issue with the trucking sector?

 

[ChrisCBR]

After they sell their house and settle 2 hours outside of the gta where they can afford a house and then...can't come teach in the GTA cause it's too damn expensive, sure! You'll keep the most passionate about their jobs, just not in this area.

LOL so its ok for everyone else to have to move an hour outside the GTA but teachers should never have to. BTW we arent advocating teachers should make 30K...

FYI being a teacher outside the GTA is even more lucrative. They get paid almost the same but cost of living is significantly lower.

 

[ChrisCBR]

Just read today that elementary teachers take 13 sick days and Educational assistants take 18 sick days on average per year.
Since they changed the rule allowing sick days to be banked, these teachers now take 60% more sick days per year than before, costing the province an extra $650 million per year. Add in highschool teachers and Id bet its over $1billion per year extra
Sick days are for being sick, not for vacation.
What happens to people who average 18 days a year of sickness in the private sector.. they get canned

 

[sburns]

They changed teachers college from 1 year to 2 years in an effort to curb the supply of teachers

There is a graduated employment method as well. Where they sub, then temp etc then a 3 year like probation. But eventually they get there. But yea it is a very lucative position with top benefits. I also know a few teachers who work second jobs in the summer because they have so much time off.

 

[ChrisCBR]

There is a graduated employment method as well. Where they sub, then temp etc then a 3 year like probation. But eventually they get there. But yea it is a very lucative position with top benefits. I also know a few teachers who work second jobs in the summer because they have so much time off.

Maybe they should teach summer school. Where else can you work 20 days x 3 hours per day and make $6000?

 

[AllistonGT]

Just read today that elementary teachers take 13 sick days and Educational assistants take 18 sick days on average per year.
Since they changed the rule allowing sick days to be banked, these teachers now take 60% more sick days per year than before, costing the province an extra $650 million per year.
Sick days for for being sick, not for vacation.
What happens to people who average 18 days a year of sickness in the private sector.. they get canned

But they care about the kids!! You know how much gets done in the classroom when a substitute teacher comes in. Next to nothing. FYI our kids finished high school 3 and 5 years ago.

 

[sburns]

Maybe they should teach summer school. Where else can you work 20 days x 3 hours per day and make $6000?

Maybe.. ?‍
I don't disagree there are problems with Ontario's education system. It does seem like they have become to unwieldy.

A first step I think they should ban teacher strikes all together during the school year. And any and all negotiations should take place during the "off" season in the summer, and be completed by the end of the summer. If it's that important to them then they have the time available to work on the problem and get it done, if not then they wait until the next summer and so on...either work together or not but stop interrupting kids learning and being taught.