Clock is ticking as the Gardiner Expressway crumbles

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Rob MacLennan said:
Even more feasible would be raising the tax rates on Toronto citizens to a more realistic level, that's not significantly lower than EVERY surrounding city, which would allow them to maintain their damned city the way it's supposed to be. That way they don't lose any more businesses to Vaughan.

Stop blaming the 905 for the 416's problems.
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Which is why the personal vehicle tax made so much sense. But I guess it wan't sense of the "common" variety so it got nixed.

But do you figure that businesses are moving out of Toronto because of the infrastructure? I don't know, but that seems doubtful to me.
 
fastar1 said:
But do you figure that businesses are moving out of Toronto because of the infrastructure? I don't know, but that seems doubtful to me.
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Businesses, particularly manufacturing, are moving out of Toronto because it's too expensive to do business there.

You can't run a manufacturing business in a 60-floor building. It needs floor space. Machinery needs solid footings and foundations. That means it needs land. But when that land can be used to put 60 floors of apartment buildings ... it gets expensive.

Among all of my customers, only a couple are in the 416, and one of those is already scheduled to close (to be replaced with more condos), and the other one is just waiting for the zoning to be changed.
 
fastar1 said:
Which is why the personal vehicle tax made so much sense. But I guess it wan't sense of the "common" variety so it got nixed.

But do you figure that businesses are moving out of Toronto because of the infrastructure? I don't know, but that seems doubtful to me.
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As Brian P posted my comment is with respect to the cost of doing business in Toronto, or simply the cost of customers getting to your business. Raise the cost of doing business significantly, and businesses migrate elsewhere. Raise the cost of customers getting to that business and the customers go elsewhere, making it necessary for the business to follow or go out of business.

How do you kill a downtown core? Disincentivize people from going there.
 
fastar1 said:
Which is why the personal vehicle tax made so much sense. But I guess it wan't sense of the "common" variety so it got nixed.

But do you figure that businesses are moving out of Toronto because of the infrastructure? I don't know, but that seems doubtful to me.
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Or is it why it made no sense at all? The way the tax was implemented one group of people were paying for the infrastructure even if they hardly used it. Another group of people were using the infrastructure and not paying at all...

This is why road tolls make such good sense from a user fee perspective, the problem is as I pointed out they also force people off of the tolled road onto parallel routes (toll avoidance), increasing the load on this infrastructure and impacting the local residents and businesses along these alternate routes. Ways around this are perimeter/congestion tolls or say big brother GPS tracking.

So back to my point, work address is in one property tax jurisdiction, and you live in another. You pay an extra income tax of 1 or 2%. Regardless of the usual MIL rate whining... BTW I fully support this and I live in 416 and work in 905, I would have no issue paying it.

Maybe the best option is to go back in time and have the province fund ALL highway infrastructure (actually more than just back in time, reverse the downloading and take over all the others). After all they collect the gas taxes that are supposed to fund these things in the first place.
 
backmarkerducati said:
Or is it why it made no sense at all? The way the tax was implemented one group of people were paying for the infrastructure even if they hardly used it. Another group of people were using the infrastructure and not paying at all...

This is why road tolls make such good sense from a user fee perspective, the problem is as I pointed out they also force people off of the tolled road onto parallel routes (toll avoidance), increasing the load on this infrastructure and impacting the local residents and businesses along these alternate routes. Ways around this are perimeter/congestion tolls or say big brother GPS tracking.

So back to my point, work address is in one property tax jurisdiction, and you live in another. You pay an extra income tax of 1 or 2%. Regardless of the usual MIL rate whining... BTW I fully support this and I live in 416 and work in 905, I would have no issue paying it.

Maybe the best option is to go back in time and have the province fund ALL highway infrastructure (actually more than just back in time, reverse the downloading and take over all the others). After all they collect the gas taxes that are supposed to fund these things in the first place.
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Whether they use it on a regular basis or not, local residents are obtaining some benefit from the taxes on business, etc., generated by those coming into the city from outside. We who live outside the GTA are already paying taxes at a reasonable rate. It's time for Torontonians to suck it up and pay for the infrastructure and services in their own city.
 
Rob MacLennan said:
Whether they use it on a regular basis or not, local residents are obtaining some benefit from the taxes on business, etc., generated by those coming into the city from outside. We who live outside the GTA are already paying taxes at a reasonable rate. It's time for Torontonians to suck it up and pay for the infrastructure and services in their own city.
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I guess we can just disagree on this one, I say it is time for the people that chose to live in 905 to suck it up and start paying for the infrastructure THEY use everyday...
 
backmarkerducati said:
I guess we can just disagree on this one, I say it is time for the people that chose to live in 905 to suck it up and start paying for the infrastructure THEY use everyday...
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And I say that it's time Toronto pull its collective head out and realize that it hasn't been properly keeping up its infrastructure for decades, and that there's no reason to put that on anyone else. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all neglect our responsibilities and just tell someone else to take care of them?
 
TwistedKestrel said:
That area is nuts, mostly because there's nothing but condos in the area. How far did you have to drive just to buy groceries?
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I just walked to the Sobeys at the corner
 
backmarkerducati said:
Or is it why it made no sense at all? The way the tax was implemented one group of people were paying for the infrastructure even if they hardly used it. Another group of people were using the infrastructure and not paying at all...

This is why road tolls make such good sense from a user fee perspective, the problem is as I pointed out they also force people off of the tolled road onto parallel routes (toll avoidance), increasing the load on this infrastructure and impacting the local residents and businesses along these alternate routes. Ways around this are perimeter/congestion tolls or say big brother GPS tracking.

So back to my point, work address is in one property tax jurisdiction, and you live in another. You pay an extra income tax of 1 or 2%. Regardless of the usual MIL rate whining... BTW I fully support this and I live in 416 and work in 905, I would have no issue paying it.

Maybe the best option is to go back in time and have the province fund ALL highway infrastructure (actually more than just back in time, reverse the downloading and take over all the others). After all they collect the gas taxes that are supposed to fund these things in the first place.
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A strict user-pay policy for everything, apart from not being feasible, is not always the most rational funding strategy.
 
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Rob MacLennan said:
How do you kill a downtown core? Disincentivize people from going there.
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If businesses are being pushed out for financial reasons, isn't it because some other entity is willing to pay more for the space? Seems to me that whatever the case, there will be an incentive to go there whether it's for commercial purposes or not.
 
fastar1 said:
If businesses are being pushed out for financial reasons, isn't it because some other entity is willing to pay more for the space? Seems to me that whatever the case, there will be an incentive to go there whether it's for commercial purposes or not.
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No, it's because they aren't willing to pay for something that they can obtain that's better elsewhere, for less.
 
Just took a chunk to the visor this morning, NB on Jarvis going under. Tiny scratch but nailed me square in the face. Anyone open face or in a convertible would have had some serious pain. Funny one of those things you see this thing coming at you, about an inch sized piece, I didn't even flinch but for how hard it hit I was like damn I'm surprised the visor didn't shatter.
 
Rob MacLennan said:
Whether they use it on a regular basis or not, local residents are obtaining some benefit from the taxes on business, etc., generated by those coming into the city from outside. We who live outside the GTA are already paying taxes at a reasonable rate. It's time for Torontonians to suck it up and pay for the infrastructure and services in their own city.
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Rob MacLennan said:
And I say that it's time Toronto pull its collective head out and realize that it hasn't been properly keeping up its infrastructure for decades, and that there's no reason to put that on anyone else. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all neglect our responsibilities and just tell someone else to take care of them?
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Your statements conflict.
Those endless lines of cars that clog the highways everyday arriving into the 416 from 7am-9am and reversing course from 3-8pm are not 416ers. They are 905 users so they are using the roads built for the 416ers and not paying to maintain them.

Personally it is all pointless. This city was poorly setup and it's too costly to try to fix it now.
They have no money to do things properly going forward e.g. proper subway systems so they do it half ***.
Street cars, what a make work program and good scam perpetrated by the TTC.
 
BuckWild said:
Your statements conflict.
Those endless lines of cars that clog the highways everyday arriving into the 416 from 7am-9am and reversing course from 3-8pm are not 416ers. They are 905 users so they are using the roads built for the 416ers and not paying to maintain them.

Personally it is all pointless. This city was poorly setup and it's too costly to try to fix it now.
They have no money to do things properly going forward e.g. proper subway systems so they do it half ***.
Street cars, what a make work program and good scam perpetrated by the TTC.
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The numbers say that damned near as many people are heading out of the 416 to go to work, on a daily basis, as are going into it. Should Mississauga and Brampton throw tolls on their roads? We could sure use the extra cash to help keep our infrastructure in good repair.

Toronto has voted in mayor after mayor who frittered away tax money on festivals, art shows, and buildings that have lain fallow, that should have been used to repair roads, bridges, water pipes, and sewers. They did this while not increasing the mill rate to support the level of services provided, let alone repair the infrastructure that carried those services. You can't infinitely defer the cost of living, any more than you can put those costs on the backs of someone else.

There is no conflict in my statements.
 
can you go after the city if the falling infrastructure damages your vehicle?

I remember something about sending damage caused by potholes to the city, but my memory is foggy.
 
Rob MacLennan said:
The numbers say that damned near as many people are heading out of the 416 to go to work, on a daily basis, as are going into it. Should Mississauga and Brampton throw tolls on their roads? We could sure use the extra cash to help keep our infrastructure in good repair.

Toronto has voted in mayor after mayor who frittered away tax money on festivals, art shows, and buildings that have lain fallow, that should have been used to repair roads, bridges, water pipes, and sewers. They did this while not increasing the mill rate to support the level of services provided, let alone repair the infrastructure that carried those services. You can't infinitely defer the cost of living, any more than you can put those costs on the backs of someone else.

There is no conflict in my statements.
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Yes. Tolls everywhere.
Why not.

I agree with the waste of money on stupid stuff.
That wavy walkway thing they have on Queens Quay area costs a couple million.
It is closed now so you want walk on it because a few people fell down and twister their ankles.
That is one giant waste of money or kickback to some friend.
 
How about a provincial property tax with an across the board mill rate. Would even things up everywhere and significantly reduce taxes for everyone outside the Toronto.
 
Scuba Steve said:
How about a provincial property tax with an across the board mill rate. Would even things up everywhere and significantly reduce taxes for everyone outside the Toronto.
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Likely not work because people outside will say why am I paying for the people inside and we keep going around the same circle.
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