New Highway 413 Yea or Nay? | Page 5 | GTAMotorcycle.com

New Highway 413 Yea or Nay?

Should they build highway 413?

  • Yes, any new highway in GTA is a good highway

    Votes: 27 77.1%

  • No, it won't help traffic and its bad for the environment.

    Votes: 8 22.9%
  • Total voters
    35
I voted for build it because it will help to get traffic off the secondary roads in this area. I won't use it if it's a toll road, but it will draw most of the traffic to it and make the local roads more enjoyable again.

The 407 is a good corridor and serves a need by diverting traffic from the 401, but I don't use it much. I hate toll roads and use the 407 maybe once or twice a year if I'm heading to the US during a weekday and I want to avoid the QEW / 403 / 410 fiasco through Mississauga and Brampton.
 
Realistically; the addition of a controlled access expressway across the top of the GTA will intensify the traffic on the secondary roads in that area and open hundreds of acres of previously undeveloped land to rural housing and urban development.

They propose projects like this to make a city grow exponentially, not to improve efficiency of travel. But y'all will figure that out eventually, once you are stuck in construction traffic trying to get on, off, or around the thing. Why a 400 series controlled access highway and not just a regular road expansion :/ because they can't toll you on a non-access controlled highway.
 
I really don't think any superstitious people will ever drive on this highway as long as it has both a 4 and a 13! Kings Highway Dead and Unlucky.

I have maps that show the 403 as a dashed line (under construction) between the junction in Burlington and Mississauga, that section became part of the 407 (wasn't supposed to be). I even remember the signs during construction that said 403 coming soon....

At the time it was opened and while they did not have the ETR bugs worked out the 407 was free. At least at that time it took enough traffic off of the 401 (I drove the 401 every work day back then) that there was a very noticeable reduction in 401 congestion. It showed me the traffic engineering (at the time) was decent, tolling screwed that up. The 401 congestion all came right back when the tolls were activated.

The entire 407 sale debacle was and still is pure stupidity, can we trust the 413 won't be rinse and repeat?

***
Yes 407 tolls are high but private businesses always do things cheaper and better than the government. /s
 
backmarkerducati said:
Yes 407 tolls are high but private businesses always do things cheaper and better than the government. /s
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That is often related to competition. When they are provided a monopoly with the weight of government to act as enforcement, they can extort at least as much as government (and maybe more as they don't need to deal with political fallout from the extortion). Hell, go crazy enough, revenues go to the moon and government get politically forced to buy back your hyper-profitable venture. The worse you behave the more you make today and tomorrow, there really is no losing.
 
Check out the toll costs and rules if you are driving an RV with a travel trailer or a transport truck.
Basically anything Other then a passenger vehicle is prohibitive cost for a short trip and requires a transponder. That's why all these new toll road proposals will not fix the 401 through traffic corridor problem. (and the major intersection with 400 north)

If 401 express lane had 3 interchanges only for Toronto, east west and central, that would serve to take heavy truck and through traffic out of Toronto's local road system, local traffic uses the collectors that also serve as emergency lanes. :unsure: they will never do that, it's too cheap and easy to implement.
 
Trials said:
Check out the toll costs and rules if you are driving an RV with a travel trailer or a transport truck.
Basically anything Other then a passenger vehicle is prohibitive cost for a short trip and requires a transponder. That's why all these new toll road proposals will not fix the 401 through traffic corridor problem. (and the major intersection with 400 north)

If 401 express lane had 3 interchanges only for Toronto, east west and central, that would serve to take heavy truck and through traffic out of Toronto's local road system, local traffic uses the collectors that also serve as emergency lanes. :unsure: they will never do that, it's too cheap and easy to implement.
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There's some interesting math there. If the owner of the truck gets paid by the load and the driver gets paid by the mile a faster trip means more trips and more money for the owner because the hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment is working at capacity.

The driver being paid by the mile is would make around $30 an hour at 100 KPH but only $3 an hour in a jam on the 401 mid Toronto.
 
nobbie48 said:
There's some interesting math there. If the owner of the truck gets paid by the load and the driver gets paid by the mile a faster trip means more trips and more money for the owner because the hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment is working at capacity.

The driver being paid by the mile is would make around $30 an hour at 100 KPH but only $3 an hour in a jam on the 401 mid Toronto.
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But driving for an hour on the 407 costs a heavy truck ~$140 with a transponder. Unless the shipper is footing the bill, that could wipe out the profit from the trip.
 
Interesting suggestion @Trials i actually really like that. Hell....make the two furthest left lanes blocked off like HOV lanes in some areas and they ONLY allow entrance / exit at a couple of spots. Otherwise they’re used as an express lane to cross the city.

It would be impossible to keep cars out of there, but with only 2-3 exits it may not be too bad even with cars. However if enough trucks use it to pass the city the remaining 5-6 lanes could be much more opened up.
 
The express lanes already have only a limited number of connections. Eastbound, once you are in the express just before the 409 junction, there's an exit for highway 400 but you can't get into the collectors until the basketweave past Jane St, the next opportunity is at Allen Road, the next one is before Leslie St, there's an exit at the DVP/404. That's not all that many opportunities to go between the collectors and express.

Traffic volume expands to fill all available space.
 
GreyGhost said:
But driving for an hour on the 407 costs a heavy truck ~$140 with a transponder. Unless the shipper is footing the bill, that could wipe out the profit from the trip.
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I knew it was high but Ouch. Again each truck has it's own situation. If the driver is a company employee they get paid hourly to sit in traffic. If it's a broker deal, a different story.

The number of runs gets screwed up when a driver thinks he can do three runs a day but ends up doing two because the delivery point closed a half hour before he got there. He got held up in traffic. The next day is screwed up as well.

It would be interesting to calculate the zero cost of traffic improvement by adequately training drivers. People use acceleration lanes to pass cars stuck in traffic jams that wouldn't exist if people didn't use acceleration lanes as passing lanes.
 
GreyGhost said:
But driving for an hour on the 407 costs a heavy truck ~$140 with a transponder. Unless the shipper is footing the bill, that could wipe out the profit from the trip.
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What profit, the truck still has to drive home again, double the toll and expect to be losing money on the return trip, if you are making money at all and not just driving an RV hauling a trailer.
 
My trucks run the 407 every day, if your coming from Burlington and need to deliver into North York, Vaughn or even up the 400 your using that road, we factor the cost into the price of goods.
I'm paying drivers by the hour, and even though they may not mind sitting on the 401 parked in the fast lane getting paid, you would never get anything to a customer in a reasonable time.
Toll roads may be more of our future, when I pull a powerboat up to the cottage , 407 is the way and its just the cost of getting to the cottage.
If you hate traffic, as I do, toll roads may be the only long term answer
 
There you have it, who pays for the high cost of transporting goods via toll roads? -> The consumer.

Wow, ya we sure need more of those around :|
 
Trials said:
There you have it, who pays for the high cost of transporting goods via toll roads? -> The consumer.

Wow, ya we sure need more of those around :|
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The alternative way to look at that is, even with the toll, in many commercial cases, that is a commercially advantageous road. Commercially advantageous means less trucks on the already plugged 401.
 
There have been many economic studies that show if the 407 was free the government would have made back the build cost in a reasonable number of years (most listed a four to five year ROI which is stellar for public projects, most look up to 10 years) just based on the increased productivity and associated government revenue. Sadly, these economic concepts are a little to esoteric for some. Ironically the highway is well built and it looks to me it was built for trucks, but trucks and other commercial vehicles cannot typically afford to use it so we do not get the benefit.

If we still "owned" it wouldn't 407 lane expansion be cheaper and better than a completely new highway?
 
backmarkerducati said:
There have been many economic studies that show if the 407 was free the government would have made back the build cost in a reasonable number of years (most listed a four to five year ROI which is stellar for public projects, most look up to 10 years) just based on the increased productivity and associated government revenue. Sadly, these economic concepts are a little to esoteric for some. Ironically the highway is well built and it looks to me it was built for trucks, but trucks and other commercial vehicles cannot typically afford to use it so we do not get the benefit.

If we still "owned" it wouldn't 407 lane expansion be cheaper and better than a completely new highway?
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Afaik "we" still own 407 east and it is about 30% cheaper to travel on than 407 but still orders of magnitude more than us tolls.
 
GreyGhost said:
Afaik "we" still own 407 east and it is about 30% cheaper to travel on than 407 but still orders of magnitude more than us tolls.
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Yes I was referring specifically to the original 407, that is what the economic studies were done on.

For the new section, great we still own it and the tolls are cheaper but the usefulness is limited for most people and trucks unless they are going to or from the original section. Yes it is not the only option but anyone going east-west needs to go up to it then back down unless they are coming from (or going) a little more north...
 
I don’t think it should be built.

I think taking the 407 back is ultimately smarter.

413 have no impact on highway 401, a conclusion reached by two separate studies on this project. It may save commuters travelling through the area a grand total of 30 seconds.

At the cost of slicing through land destroying the habitats within. It will also cut through viable and productive farmland. For a healthy community, it's important to protect this land and the environment. We need to grow our food close to home, not to mention this area is so beautiful. We need more local, sustainable meat and dairy so that we don't have to rely on heavily commercialized versions or buy from the states. It said it would destroy 13 farms in the building of this highway. Certainly not the direction I would want to move in as someone who supports local farmers.

So if it doesn’t benefit current populations what does it do? It banks on continuing urban sprawl and spread cities further and further out. It will take money and resources away from actual needed projects like highways 6, 7, 24 and 51 which have already been held up for years and are desperately needed.

413 was disregarded by previous administrations as a waste of tax dollars. And no other party supports it now.

(My sources) New report shows the proposed GTA-West Highway is a poor use of funds, suggests alternatives - Environmental Defence


Here, we can see the issues with urban sprawl where cities get too big eventually it becomes too difficult to manage and are dependent on new construction. With no new construction, low taxes for city which mean higher deficits and delayed repairs for the ever growing and collapsing of old infrastructure.

To top it all off I read that it’s backed by the mob, linked to Ford and other Vaughn developments. This twitter thread’s interesting. Maybe it is to satisfy Fords developer buddies and give him something to distract from his pandemic failure.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1352642330881368064
 
crankcall said:
My trucks run the 407 every day, if your coming from Burlington and need to deliver into North York, Vaughn or even up the 400 your using that road, we factor the cost into the price of goods.
I'm paying drivers by the hour, and even though they may not mind sitting on the 401 parked in the fast lane getting paid, you would never get anything to a customer in a reasonable time.
Toll roads may be more of our future, when I pull a powerboat up to the cottage , 407 is the way and its just the cost of getting to the cottage.
If you hate traffic, as I do, toll roads may be the only long term answer
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If you think of truck tolls as lease payments on a piece of equipment it makes sense if the equipment (The 407) improves productivity and or reduces costs. The nice thing is that there's no cancellation charge if the equipment is no longer needed.

If a manufacturer was shipping goods and 50% of the truck time was idling on the 401 they might need four trucks and drivers on the road. At 100% efficiency they would only need two trucks and drivers.

The cottage run has less to do with economics but if you've earned a break why not go first class. The bike is a bigger rip off but I paid to ride the 407 because I didn't have to dodge as many cars or crawl along in the heat, cold or wet.

Edit: I can see toll roads to fund more new roads or even alternates. If there was a system to take cars off the roads it's just as good as widening a road IMO. Whatever helps with the traffic. I do resent the tolls being used to fund other non-transportation projects, art galleries, parks etc. Too many of our tax dollars end up in general coffers open to any greedy hand.
 
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