More bad news for H-D

[Evoex]

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I started on a big cubic inch chopper and with under a year of riding moved on to a HD road glide. The HD was very manageable to learn on. Had an older R6 In the garage In that same time, It was light but very awkward feeling.
I moved on to my current 1190 adventure and dropped it twice in the first month.
Slow speed, sand and seat height all factors.
I spent a decent amount of time on a new MT09 last year That’s a good learner bike. imo

As for the demise of HD people have been calling it for years. I think they have a while yet. But I do think they will need to change the way they do things.
the majority of the next generation is going to want Motorcycles as cheap transportation. Small, electric, and cheap.
If they want to maintain their luxury branding then they need to downsize drastically.

Mt09 learner bike? Ahhh, gonna disagree there.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Observation: It's funny how cruisers go back and forth between "Giant, poor handling unwieldy tanks with terrible performance" to "Easy to ride" around here depending on the topic at hand.

 

[GreyGhost]

Observation: It's funny how cruisers go back and forth between "Giant, poor handling unwieldy tanks with terrible performance" to "Easy to ride" around here depending on the topic at hand.

Well part of it is the vast disparity in size and power. Cruisers all get lumped together and it could be a Vstar 650 (or *shudder* a marauder 250) or a 1900 cc bagger.

With experience and skill, any rider can competently ride any bike. Starting on a big cruiser is similar to starting on a 600+ SS. Sure, the right rider with the right attitude can do it with no issues but for the vast majority of riders, the vast majority of the time, they will learn slower and have more incidents than if they started on a bike that was more forgiving. On a SS, you probably get into speed or acceleration trouble, on a big cruiser, you probably fall over in a parking lot reasonably often as you let the bike tip over too far and don't have the skill or muscle to keep the shiny bits from touching.

 

[Trials]

Vast disparity in what somebody considers a skilled rider. Like the Ghost said a skilled and experienced rider can ride any bike, to it's limits, cruisers set the limits bar very low, they make no claim other then to work at normal posted road speed and have something called leg room and if you need leg room :/ well you are not one of those skilled experienced riders he was talking about that could ride any motorcycle.

 

[Mad Mike]

Observation: It's funny how cruisers go back and forth between "Giant, poor handling unwieldy tanks with terrible performance" to "Easy to ride" around here depending on the topic at hand.

Both are true. Kind of like getting a Jeep Wrangler as your first car: Giant, poor handling unwieldy tanks with terrible performance, easy to drive.

 

[Mad Mike]

Vast disparity in what somebody considers a skilled rider. Like the Ghost said a skilled and experienced rider can ride any bike, to it's limits, cruisers set the limits bar very low, they make no claim other then to work at normal posted road speed and have something called leg room and if you need leg room :/ well you are not one of those skilled experienced riders he was talking about that could ride any motorcycle.

Not so sure I agree with that. I consider my neighbour a skilled rider. He has more than 1/2 million KMs on 2 wheels - his first bike was a Goldwing, and every bike since has been a Goldwing. He never rides more than 20km over the speed limit, he's never come off his bike, he handles that monster like a Golden Helmet - he has no need to take the bike to 1/2 it's limits as he rides highways and byways at the speed limit, he has no intentions of seeing a track, or a 200km pass on the 507.

He had trouble and was scary shaky then trying my bikes SS and ST bikes - a ride around the block was enough (for both of us!).

Riding for some is about performance and developing skills that are needed for competition. To other's it's about enjoying the scenery, camaraderie or solitude -- their skill is safe and competent handling of a machine they have become 'one with'.

I respect both.

 

[Trials]

Only one of those guys can ride Any motorcycle,
your neighbour, sorry but he's not there yet.

... he has no concept of a motorcycles front to rear balance.

 

[J_F]

Observation: It's funny how cruisers go back and forth between "Giant, poor handling unwieldy tanks with terrible performance" to "Easy to ride" around here depending on the topic at hand.

yup

cruisers of course are pretty easy to ride around town and on highways
slow speed handling is terrible and takes time to get good at
as does spirited riding

but a good cruiser rider that is familiar with his bike can be quite good at both
whereas a Street Rossi with a bike half that weight can be terrible at everything

all in all I'd have to say I think there are more terribly incompetent cruiser owners around
simply as a function of them buying their first bike later in life and it is heavy as fawk

 

[GreyGhost]

all in all I'd have to say I think there are more terribly incompetent cruiser owners around
simply as a function of them buying their first bike later in life and it is heavy as fawk

Cruiser riders are also much less likely than newbie performance bike riders to hurt themselves or literally scare the $%%# out of themselves. A few scratches doesnt make you hang up the helmet, after a high speed run through the rhubarb, most newish riders decide to call it amd move on to the next activity.

 

[Mad Mike]

I think we need an expert to make up the official Expert Checklist.

 

[Mad Mike]

Cruiser riders are also much less likely than newbie performance bike riders to hurt themselves or literally scare the $%%# out of themselves. A few scratches doesnt make you hang up the helmet, after a high speed run through the rhubarb, most newish riders decide to call it amd move on to the next activity.

I occasionally fill in with a group of old fellas that all ride heavy cruisers. The don’t crash, they don’t speed, and they ride full to empty between stops (alway at gas stations beside Tim Hortons).

The rides are certainly devoid of spirit and not always my first choice for a day long run, but I take it for what it’s worth and spend time looking at all the things I usually miss. They really enjoy their rides and they all get home alive with licences in tact.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

but a good cruiser rider that is familiar with his bike can be quite good at both
whereas a Street Rossi with a bike half that weight can be terrible at everything

all in all I'd have to say I think there are more terribly incompetent cruiser owners around
simply as a function of them buying their first bike later in life and it is heavy as fawk

Followed a guy on a cruiser, on the Dragon who thought he could show sport bikes that they had nothing on him. Admittedly, I was impressed. Guy was railing it hard, hard parts dragging, sparks everywhere. Guy could ride.

After about 3 minutes of regular mirror checks (guessing he expected to have dusted us), his shoulders slumped and he waived us past. I give him 3 gold stars. Guy railed it, and knew when to call it quits.

Myself, I've ridden all sorts of bikes. Each has it's merits. HD/Cruisers are great at straight lines and gentle curves. Some are crazy uncomfortable depending on the saddle angle (lower back hurt like crazy on Victory Magnum, Suzuki Boulevard 800cc (forget exact model), HD V-rod and Victory Hammer S were great for comfort). Sportbikes have similar features - newer R1 & R6, Daytona 675, are unforgiving for comfort. My KTM RC8r is the best of all worlds in my opinion, except for the saddle, which you may as well substitute for a 2x12.

 

[GreyGhost]

Vast disparity in what somebody considers a skilled rider. Like the Ghost said a skilled and experienced rider can ride any bike, to it's limits, cruisers set the limits bar very low, they make no claim other then to work at normal posted road speed and have something called leg room and if you need leg room :/ well you are not one of those skilled experienced riders he was talking about that could ride any motorcycle.

I consider myself skilled and experienced but I'm not delusional. I do not have the relevant experience, seat time nor innate ability to push any bike to its limits. That class of riders is exceptionally small and has skill and ability well above what a normal person requires on public roads (more never hurts, just you can have a lifetime of safe and enjoyable riding while still be an order of magnitude less skilled than szoke).

 

[Mad Mike]

no takers on the expert list? I’ll start a new thread.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

I consider myself skilled and experienced but I'm not delusional. I do no have the relevant experience, seat time nor innate ability to push any bike to its limits.

To be honest, it doesn't take any real skill to take a cruiser (HD) to the limits of lean.https://www.hdforums.com.au/Thread/504994/1
24.4 to 35.5 degrees of lean before you call it quits.

But I agree. 95% of sportbike riders won't reach 75% of a bike's limits.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

no takers on the expert list? I’ll start a new thread.

Define expert.
Can most track riders take cruiser to it's limits? yes. Can red group track riders overwhelm stock suspension on a sport bike? Pretty much 100% yes.

Yet neither are true experts.

 

[GreyGhost]

To be honest, it doesn't take any real skill to take a cruiser (HD) to the limits of lean.https://www.hdforums.com.au/Thread/504994/1
24.4 to 35.5 degrees of lean before you call it quits.

But I agree. 95% of sportbike riders won't reach 75% of a bike's limits.

I'm not talking about light scraping, I am talking about riding the ragged edge where hard parts are just touching but you haven't yet unweighted your rear tire and lost the back. Or are those lean angles to hard parts? If so, blech. But still hard to ride right at that edge without crashing.

 

[Mad Mike]

Define expert.
Can most track riders take cruiser to it's limits? yes. Can red group track riders overwhelm stock suspension on a sport bike? Pretty much 100% yes.

Can red group Track rider climb a vertical wall on a Scorpa?

 

[BigEvilDoer]

... Or are those lean angles to hard parts? If so, blech. But still hard to ride right at that edge without crashing.

Well, when cruisers touch down hard parts, there's not much left for lean angle before it's game over. Exhaust drags, saddle bags etc etc.
But agreed, when you're at the limit (the edge) *ALL* the time, it's hard not to crash....
Those guys make it to CSBK, AMA, and if supremely talented, WSS, then WSBK, or with God's grace, Moto3, Moto2 and GP.

 

[BigEvilDoer]

Can red group Track rider climb a vertical wall on a Scorpa?

Hence the request for definition of expert.
You want track day red group to do crazy ass trials stuff? Not gonna happen for the most part. I don't know any serious trials riders personally, but can you expect them to take corner 1 at Shannonville at 165km/h? Without track experience, pretty much a hard no.

As mentioned, expert really depends on the parameters.
Am I an expert in my graphic design field? Yes. Am I an expert in 3d animation? No freaking way, yet we both use similar tools.

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