Though I could not find enough details in either the newspaper reports or the Pro6 website to confirm the cause of the accident, the July 4 tragedy at Calibogie sounds like it could have been caused by someone riding beyond their ability and taking out others in the process. (I stand to be corrected if anyone has better info.) This makes me second-guess whether I want to take to the track without knowing the skill level and attitude of everyone else out there at the same time. I recently had my first track experience by taking Fast Phase 1 in an "executive" day. I was comfortable signing up because I assumed (it turned out more or less correctly) that everyone intended to ride well within their ability. The experience was great and am I eager to return to the track. I accept that low-siding and running wide will happen, but I've been assuming (perhaps naively) that they don't usually result in taking out the people around you. Am I offbase thinking that a significant risk of amateur track days is not knowing who you are sharing the track with? Does the cost and effort to attend a track day effectively weed out people with a dangerous attitude, or can marshalls identify and get dangerous people off the track? How do you manage the risk?
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Managing amateur track day risk
- Thread starter Geeser
- Start date
I have seen a lot of incidents on the track, and in my experience, the vast majority of them are self-inflicted.
In most cases, the most dangerous person to you on the track is yourself, namely when your "ambition outweighs your talent".
In most cases, the most dangerous person to you on the track is yourself, namely when your "ambition outweighs your talent".
I take from your question that you may have one of two types of riders in mind, who is a concern to you when it comes to sharing track time with them.
The first type would be the hothead, and they essentially don't exist on track days. I'm sure there's been the odd time when someone is either showboating, taking silly risks, making too many mistakes or otherwise presenting themselves as an overt danger to others, but then they are VERY quickly identified and either straightened out or shown the door. I probabl know less about the incident at Calabogie than you know but I am confident that it was not caused by a hothead.
The other type of rider is one who is pushing his limits, exploring his comfort level, trying to go faster than he did before. And that is all of us. Of course the inevitable consequence is that sometimes one of us will find our limit by exceedin it and th result is typically harmless but in extreme cases, it can lead someone's death. This is my guess of what happened on Monday.
None of us want to share the track with he first type of rider, but if you aren't comfortable sharing the track with the second type of rider then... I guess that will severly limit your options for track outings on your bike.
The first type would be the hothead, and they essentially don't exist on track days. I'm sure there's been the odd time when someone is either showboating, taking silly risks, making too many mistakes or otherwise presenting themselves as an overt danger to others, but then they are VERY quickly identified and either straightened out or shown the door. I probabl know less about the incident at Calabogie than you know but I am confident that it was not caused by a hothead.
The other type of rider is one who is pushing his limits, exploring his comfort level, trying to go faster than he did before. And that is all of us. Of course the inevitable consequence is that sometimes one of us will find our limit by exceedin it and th result is typically harmless but in extreme cases, it can lead someone's death. This is my guess of what happened on Monday.
None of us want to share the track with he first type of rider, but if you aren't comfortable sharing the track with the second type of rider then... I guess that will severly limit your options for track outings on your bike.
First off I'd suggest that Pro 6 are very professional when it comes to organising track days.
That being said, every time you take to the track, at any level, you run a risk. Just ask Simoncellis victims. I don't think it's right to speculate on what contributed to the poor riders death at Calabogie. Suffice it to say I've seen Pro 6 run 2 days at Calabogie with 1 red flag (in 'fastest' group) and track days at Calabogie where's there a red flag every hour without fail. Just ask anyone who attended the DOCC weekend.
You are right in assuming one of the biggest risks is your fellow rider, but, as Lightcycle puts it, equipment failure or overestimating your own ability are the biggest contributors to track day incidents. And I don't need stats to prove it. A single year of sitting in the pits watching the recovery truck come in with a single bike on it tells me all I need to know.
That being said, every time you take to the track, at any level, you run a risk. Just ask Simoncellis victims. I don't think it's right to speculate on what contributed to the poor riders death at Calabogie. Suffice it to say I've seen Pro 6 run 2 days at Calabogie with 1 red flag (in 'fastest' group) and track days at Calabogie where's there a red flag every hour without fail. Just ask anyone who attended the DOCC weekend.
You are right in assuming one of the biggest risks is your fellow rider, but, as Lightcycle puts it, equipment failure or overestimating your own ability are the biggest contributors to track day incidents. And I don't need stats to prove it. A single year of sitting in the pits watching the recovery truck come in with a single bike on it tells me all I need to know.
How does the incident "SOUND" like it was caused by someone riding outside of their ability???
There are ZERO details about the crash.
Crashing happens in all forms of motorcycle riding, the same thing could and does happen in group rides on the street.
If motorcycles are riding in a group and a single rider crashes anywhere in that group, the bike can collect other bikes and cause them to crash and injure the riders through no fault of their own.
Also, the rider who crashes can easily be run over by other riders(I've experienced both scenarios on multiple occasions at high and low speeds).
Crashing is part of this, several people die each season as a result, unfortunately, that is the nature of the beast.
If you're worried about every rider you encounter, you really don't belong at these events.
There are ZERO details about the crash.
Crashing happens in all forms of motorcycle riding, the same thing could and does happen in group rides on the street.
If motorcycles are riding in a group and a single rider crashes anywhere in that group, the bike can collect other bikes and cause them to crash and injure the riders through no fault of their own.
Also, the rider who crashes can easily be run over by other riders(I've experienced both scenarios on multiple occasions at high and low speeds).
Crashing is part of this, several people die each season as a result, unfortunately, that is the nature of the beast.
If you're worried about every rider you encounter, you really don't belong at these events.
If you know nothing.... why are you saying anything?
You won't find a better track day then the days run by Pro6.
I've spent a lot of time at the track starting in 2005 and have been racing since 2008. Out of all of the track day providers, PRO6 is without a doubt the most professional and best organised.
You made the right move by taking FAST. Go through the other levels and learn the rest of the "common sense" you need to avoid your self preservation instincts that will get you into trouble.
Accidents happen on the track, we all try to mitigate them but it does happen. In some cases it your own mistake or someone else's that will take you out.
The bikes today are capable of far more than most riders could ever achieve. So, as long as you don't do anything to upset the bike....you're good.
There is advice on this forum from "armchair athletes" that will do nothing more than confuse you. Call Michel at FAST or speak to Andrew Nelson, they know what they're talking about and will not mislead you.
There are many here that will provide the right advice and direction, PM and i'll let you who i trust!!
The groups at a track day are designed keep everyone safe at their respective skill level. There will always be hooligans at any level.
If in doubt, ask the organizer or the chief marshall.....they should have one.
Don't be discouraged.....the track is safer than the street....always be prepared!!
PM me if you need more,
Do you apply this same logic when you ride/drive on the streets?
lol...he really use to be much taller !!..sorry man had to that door was wide open !!
To the OP don't get paranoid with what you read. It's all stats. And if you really look close enough your much safer on the track. Accidents happen as others here have mentioned. Ride within your limits and have fun.
Pro 6 is very highly rated and runs the benchmark of all trackday providers. They are top notch and have earned that mark. There number one goal is rider safety and fun for all.
Unfortunately life is unpredictable and occasionally things go wrong and riders crash and in this specific case it went wrong real bad. You can't base your life and enjoyment on what ifs cause if that was the case you'd have to hide in a house all alone and never leave because some guy could have a heart attack behind the wheel of a car and take you out at a bus stop like what happen last week in Toronto. That's no way to live...
If you had fun at the FAST school than prepare your equipement & get the best gear you can an go out there and have some fun & enjoy. I know I will !!
rmemedic
Well-known member
Get out there and get riding.
I used to be nervous when I first started riding track, and that nervousnes about worrying about the other bikes made me the one that was more of a danger (switching lines so they could go around, only they don't expect you to, etc.)
Now, I'll go out and ride with the intermediate group that I can barely keep up to just for the experience.
Every so often I'll crash, usually it's from me pushing my limits, but that's just part of it and I get up and continue riding almost all of the time. There is a saying in motocross "If you aren't crashing, you're not going fast enough". In fact, I'm over due for a crash. I've managed to save all my little slip ups the last few weekends.
Yes, there are the hot headed guys out there, but they get found out very fast.
We had a guy a few weeks ago that was all over the place, not holding lines, crossing lines over jumps to "block" people, or he was trying to scrub, we're not sure. Nobody, even the fast guys could pass this jerk because he was extremely unpredictable, nobody could even get in close to him because it seemed like he was always ready to wipe out. I spent a few laps in practice on his rear end but it was too risky to even attempt a pass, I got around him after he looped himself out over a jump.
I thought maybe I was the only one that noticed this guy, but last week (about 3 weeks after) on the start gate, at least 6 of us were all talking about the guy and wondering why he hasn't been seen since that weekend. Everyone had the same complaint about the guy so I think the series organizers sorted the guy out.
Don't worry about the faster guys coming up behind you. Hold your lines and we will make the pass, it's good practice for us that way. Only here and there will I play dirty with a guy on practice days. Either he is a friend I know that we can trust each other and we find it fun. Sometimes there will be a newb playing a bit too dirty or dumb that I'll set straight on the track. Had an incident last week that made me go find the guy in the pits and explain some basic practice day track behaviour to him, but that's the first time I've ever had to do it.
I know I'm talking from the dirt world, but the street world would be very similar. We run seperate classes so nobody gets landed on or stuffed off the track (we don't get nice grass and gravel traps to slide in to, we get rocks and trees) and there is a watch out for those in over their head.
Make some great friends through riding, and it's always fun to have someone on the track to play with. Everyone is friendly and helpfull so don't be shy!
I used to be nervous when I first started riding track, and that nervousnes about worrying about the other bikes made me the one that was more of a danger (switching lines so they could go around, only they don't expect you to, etc.)
Now, I'll go out and ride with the intermediate group that I can barely keep up to just for the experience.
Every so often I'll crash, usually it's from me pushing my limits, but that's just part of it and I get up and continue riding almost all of the time. There is a saying in motocross "If you aren't crashing, you're not going fast enough". In fact, I'm over due for a crash. I've managed to save all my little slip ups the last few weekends.
Yes, there are the hot headed guys out there, but they get found out very fast.
We had a guy a few weeks ago that was all over the place, not holding lines, crossing lines over jumps to "block" people, or he was trying to scrub, we're not sure. Nobody, even the fast guys could pass this jerk because he was extremely unpredictable, nobody could even get in close to him because it seemed like he was always ready to wipe out. I spent a few laps in practice on his rear end but it was too risky to even attempt a pass, I got around him after he looped himself out over a jump.
I thought maybe I was the only one that noticed this guy, but last week (about 3 weeks after) on the start gate, at least 6 of us were all talking about the guy and wondering why he hasn't been seen since that weekend. Everyone had the same complaint about the guy so I think the series organizers sorted the guy out.
Don't worry about the faster guys coming up behind you. Hold your lines and we will make the pass, it's good practice for us that way. Only here and there will I play dirty with a guy on practice days. Either he is a friend I know that we can trust each other and we find it fun. Sometimes there will be a newb playing a bit too dirty or dumb that I'll set straight on the track. Had an incident last week that made me go find the guy in the pits and explain some basic practice day track behaviour to him, but that's the first time I've ever had to do it.
I know I'm talking from the dirt world, but the street world would be very similar. We run seperate classes so nobody gets landed on or stuffed off the track (we don't get nice grass and gravel traps to slide in to, we get rocks and trees) and there is a watch out for those in over their head.
Make some great friends through riding, and it's always fun to have someone on the track to play with. Everyone is friendly and helpfull so don't be shy!
except you have motor vehicle insurance if you are injured or killed on the street. Even life or disability insurance may be void on a trackday.......I am still unclear on this issue. Some may feel that is too much risk to leave their family with.
This, plus driving to work is virtually a necessity in this society so it's not really equivalent.
Some seem to take offense at the question, as if the OP is accusing us all of being unsafe whackos but it's only an inquiry into the level of faith he can put into trackday riders overall. If his standards of behaviour at the track are higher than what people do out there then we are all better off if he doesn't partake. There's no offense in that.
If you want to manage the risk ... manage the errors that can either cause YOU to crash or to cause others to crash around you.
You can manage this risk but you can not completely eliminate it. Still ... managing that portion of the risk which is YOUR responsibility, is the best you can do.
Factors that can make YOU crash ... this is just a start ...
Riding over your head. (so DON'T - stay within your comfort limits)
Insufficient training. (Take a course - there are many available and they are ALL good)
Incorrect cornering lines. (See "training")
Being rough with the controls. First get smooth, then getting faster will come by itself because you are no longer upsetting the bike.
Equipment failures. (1. Tires. 2. Suspension. 3. Fluid levels. 4. Fluid containment and safety wiring - ALL fluids. 5. General preventive inspection and maintenance.)
Riding when tired, mentally or physically, or angry for whatever reason. (Take a break!)
Factors that can make others crash around you and possibly take you out ...
Being unpredictable, particularly on corner entrance. Pick your entrance point into the next corner at the BEGINNING of the straightaway leading up to that corner and go STRAIGHT to your entrance point. No weaving back and forth and no changing your mind at the last second that you are too far inside and that you need to suddenly go to the outside of the track as you approach the corner ... and I'm describing that situation in detail because someone did that to me, when I was the faster rider that had already committed to passing the slower one on the outside going into that corner and was already at maximum braking when the slower rider suddenly changed direction in front of me and took away the line that I was committed to ... (I made it through but it was REALLY close, FAR too close for comfort - by the way, this happened in red group, so the other rider ought to have known better)
Don't cross the blend line when entering the track. Particular importance at Shannonville and Cayuga. Hang a right across that line before you are up to speed, and you are going to get hit by someone already on the track at full speed, and there's nothing the other rider can do because they're already committed to that speed and that cornering line.
Pay attention to the meaning of red flag in rider's meeting. In some cases you are to slow down and proceed to a normal track exit, in other cases you are to slow down and stop at the next marshal station. In BOTH cases do NOT slam on the brakes in case the rider behind did not see the red flag. Best practice is to put your left hand up and close the throttle, do NOT apply the brake, and coast down. If that coasting takes you past the very first marshal station where you saw the flag ... so be it, keep on coasting and go to the next one.
If you have to slow down abnormally on the track, e.g. you are running out of gas, put a hand up and do NOT cross the normal racing line. Commit to exiting the racing surface to either left or right and don't change your mind.
And speaking of that ... don't run out of gas on the track. Put enough in.
You can manage this risk but you can not completely eliminate it. Still ... managing that portion of the risk which is YOUR responsibility, is the best you can do.
Factors that can make YOU crash ... this is just a start ...
Riding over your head. (so DON'T - stay within your comfort limits)
Insufficient training. (Take a course - there are many available and they are ALL good)
Incorrect cornering lines. (See "training")
Being rough with the controls. First get smooth, then getting faster will come by itself because you are no longer upsetting the bike.
Equipment failures. (1. Tires. 2. Suspension. 3. Fluid levels. 4. Fluid containment and safety wiring - ALL fluids. 5. General preventive inspection and maintenance.)
Riding when tired, mentally or physically, or angry for whatever reason. (Take a break!)
Factors that can make others crash around you and possibly take you out ...
Being unpredictable, particularly on corner entrance. Pick your entrance point into the next corner at the BEGINNING of the straightaway leading up to that corner and go STRAIGHT to your entrance point. No weaving back and forth and no changing your mind at the last second that you are too far inside and that you need to suddenly go to the outside of the track as you approach the corner ... and I'm describing that situation in detail because someone did that to me, when I was the faster rider that had already committed to passing the slower one on the outside going into that corner and was already at maximum braking when the slower rider suddenly changed direction in front of me and took away the line that I was committed to ... (I made it through but it was REALLY close, FAR too close for comfort - by the way, this happened in red group, so the other rider ought to have known better)
Don't cross the blend line when entering the track. Particular importance at Shannonville and Cayuga. Hang a right across that line before you are up to speed, and you are going to get hit by someone already on the track at full speed, and there's nothing the other rider can do because they're already committed to that speed and that cornering line.
Pay attention to the meaning of red flag in rider's meeting. In some cases you are to slow down and proceed to a normal track exit, in other cases you are to slow down and stop at the next marshal station. In BOTH cases do NOT slam on the brakes in case the rider behind did not see the red flag. Best practice is to put your left hand up and close the throttle, do NOT apply the brake, and coast down. If that coasting takes you past the very first marshal station where you saw the flag ... so be it, keep on coasting and go to the next one.
If you have to slow down abnormally on the track, e.g. you are running out of gas, put a hand up and do NOT cross the normal racing line. Commit to exiting the racing surface to either left or right and don't change your mind.
And speaking of that ... don't run out of gas on the track. Put enough in.
Thanks for the feedback. I assumed, incorrectly, that a multi-bike crash is more likely due to some degree of recklessness rather than the unavoidable risks associated with track riding. In my mind, I was analogizing to skiing where people fall all the time as part of the sport, but a collision between two skiiers is almost always due to someone being reckless. I realize that at my relative inexperience, I'm probably the biggest risk on the track - to myself and others - until my skill level improves. And I meant no offense to Pro6 or anyone else (I too have heard that Pro6 is fantastic).
I dont think no matter how trajic an event like this may be it shouldnt be used as a catalyst to go on some track witchhunt. We dont even know what happened yet (at least I dont anyway). What I do know is Sandy and his crew run a tight day and I am confident that they did whatever they could to make it as safe as they could. Track is infinitely safer than street riding. Things happen from time to time, its horrible but its also inevitable.
We all as users have to look at our own barometer and decide what risk is acceptable to us and ride accordingly. For myself I am only comfortable on the track. I have not owned a streetbike in over 20 years and have no intention of buying one any time soon. At my shop I ride everything from 125s (stop laughing) to Goldwings with every supersport and cruiser in between daily. HATE every one of them I do the ride as short as I can and still get the info needed and straight back. Thats my comfort zone. I would not hesitate to do one of Sandy's trackdays. I have in the past and will in the future (if I can ever get five freakin minutes away from the bench).
I am gutted like most on the thread. Being a track operator myself I can also understand the other side and my heart goes out to the Pro6 team and the families and injured.
Let the info come out and get a solid understanding of the circumstances before starting to dissect the track riding orgs. Now is not the time.
We all as users have to look at our own barometer and decide what risk is acceptable to us and ride accordingly. For myself I am only comfortable on the track. I have not owned a streetbike in over 20 years and have no intention of buying one any time soon. At my shop I ride everything from 125s (stop laughing) to Goldwings with every supersport and cruiser in between daily. HATE every one of them I do the ride as short as I can and still get the info needed and straight back. Thats my comfort zone. I would not hesitate to do one of Sandy's trackdays. I have in the past and will in the future (if I can ever get five freakin minutes away from the bench).
I am gutted like most on the thread. Being a track operator myself I can also understand the other side and my heart goes out to the Pro6 team and the families and injured.
Let the info come out and get a solid understanding of the circumstances before starting to dissect the track riding orgs. Now is not the time.
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