They should mute the mics of non speakers, and if you don’t answer the question within 30 seconds it’s a lashing for you. I’d watch that. Hell I’d pay to watch that. Govt would make lots on the PPV alone.
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Justin Time
- Thread starter Baggsy
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I like your honesty. My only question was the leaf blower electric or gas?
J_F
Guest
of course it would
but it's disingenuous to claim that a trade deficit=national debt
it doesn't work that way, and Pierre knows it
sounds like a piece of propaganda straight from Orange man's playbook
One of those turbine powered ones they use at the airport. You know a lot of blowing is happening but can't determine where the leaves or snow went.
sburns
Well-known member
You shouldn't have to. It's governance, not used car sales.
I just want to know the gov is Building XYZ (infrastructure), Supporting ABC (economy, jobs, education, healthcare, security,), Providing 123 (services), and the money comes from these collection of taxes. All of that should be completely transparent, but it's not, if it is I am not aware of it, or it's burried someplace in a 1000 page report that hardly anyone has time to read or figure out.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
A lot to respond to. Here goes.
Savings. It stands to reason the demographic with savings would have concern. Personally im not expecting govt to debit my savings, I do worry the might do things like reduce saving incentives or increase taxes on registered savings withdrawals.
Covid spending. I think this is more a value for dollar argument. Covid aid reached 8 million, yet only 4m were unemployed at the peak. Lack of transparency creates a lot of doubt and questions. You can smother a campfire with a pickup full of $20s - is that the right thing to do?
I interact with millennials all day long, I’m a bit perplexed by two things. First, an almost complete oblivion to what debt and deficits mean to a country, and second — no comprehension that this will be ‘their debt’, something they will be paying for their entire lives.
Unions. Let’s first ask their purpose. The let’s look at their accomplishments. PSUs focus on wages and work reduction - in some cases achieving double the market wages for half the work. If there was a supply side rationale for this I’d say ok, but in many cases getting that PSU union gig is a bit like a small lottery win. Shouldn’t be like that. Now let’s look at non PSU unions. In manufacturing they lost pace with the employer needs for productivity, rather than adapt and preserve their workforce the stood on principle and watched the jobs leave - permanently. Not all could be saved, but adopting a similar approach to Honda or Toyota would have made the workforce productivity model good enough to keep thousands of jobs.
Liberals. All I can say is were travelling the same road that McGinty and Wynne led us down. If you remember, it has a dead end.
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Looks like corporate Canada lined up at the trough FP Investigation: As CEWS flowed in, dividends flowed out
He didn't; you're reading your own bias into what he said.
Edit: There was a comparative relationship, not a causal one.
Here's a CBC article: We retooled and made free hand sanitizer. Feds instead bought from China who had also retooled:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/distillers-hand-sanitizer-pandemic-1.5813509
They're getting jobs & income, we have debt which is accumulating.
Linking the two causally is wrong, I'm not sure why you did.
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Mad Mike
Well-known member
its not disingenuous, it’s the way it works. Rather than explain it here, there is tons on the subject. trade deficit relationship to national debt - Google Search
All well and fair BUT if anyone is attempting the politics of fear (like earlier in this thread) it will only work if the boogeyman fear mongering is at all meaningful to the target audience:
- People without savings are not going to respond to fear mongering about boogeymen taking savings.
- Handwringing about national debt etc. will not get you the vote of people that could care less, and BTW most boomers could have cared less when they were that age...they did run it up themselves. But it will push voters away by telling them they should not have received any help.
- Handwringing about unions just alienates a very large portion of the vote.
- Again, not even touching the "social" issues.
Your post focuses mostly on why all those people are wrong instead of.........classic echo chamber.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Trudeau is probably going to beat himself. Sooner or later we’ll get to peek behind the Covid spending curtain, that might be his judgement day.
You are right that handwringing doesn’t work. But the minute you slow a gravy train, sentiments change quickly. At some point the well goes dry, a problem that no socialist has solved without installing crippling taxes and abandoning capitalism.
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Don't forget credibility on spending and cuts. Time and again everyone hears about gravy trains but when the next party gets in the spending doesn't go down all that much is at all. Historically if the waste was as high as always claimed we should expect much bigger cuts with little pain to the masses. 10% maybe 20%????
You said.... "Liberals. All I can say is were travelling the same road that McGinty and Wynne led us down. If you remember, it has a dead end."
Have you compared Ford's spending vs Wynne, and lets totally ignore 2020 which has been way higher. The gravy train obviously did not stop, did it just change tracks? Was it all a lie? Or is the statement totally boogeyman fear mongering? Time will tell.
This time may be different but again every-time was supposed to be different.
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Interesting chart below, back on federal politics. This excludes interest on the debt, just program spending... WW2 was what it was spending wise, after that....
While individual governments cranked up the spending the next ones really didn't cut all that waste they promised or that they said was there.
Other than the Chretien Liberals of course. Mulroney looks to have flattened the curve which is not a bad thing but did he really do much, where were all the efficiencies compared to the immediate previous PET years (should have been a big drop????)? If we filter out the recession at the end of the PET years Mulroney didn't flatten it out all that much compared to the previous trend. If we filter out the 2008 recession Harper still actually increased spending, where was the gravy train then?
Junior is a chip off the old spending block so far....
Regardless, waste and inefficiencies don't seem to be stopping, left or right. The proverbial "gravy train" at best is just changing tracks.
While individual governments cranked up the spending the next ones really didn't cut all that waste they promised or that they said was there.
Other than the Chretien Liberals of course. Mulroney looks to have flattened the curve which is not a bad thing but did he really do much, where were all the efficiencies compared to the immediate previous PET years (should have been a big drop????)? If we filter out the recession at the end of the PET years Mulroney didn't flatten it out all that much compared to the previous trend. If we filter out the 2008 recession Harper still actually increased spending, where was the gravy train then?
Junior is a chip off the old spending block so far....
Regardless, waste and inefficiencies don't seem to be stopping, left or right. The proverbial "gravy train" at best is just changing tracks.
If you look really carefully and use a magnifying glass, you'll notice a sliver labelled "Joe Who". That's where the Conservatives tried some major belt tightening. Part of the problem is the number of people working for the government. Does it increase during Liberal or Conservative governments? Would people vote to put themselves out of work? So after Joe's fiasco, the spending tends to be cut by attrition. If you'll notice the former Ontario government, they signed numerous lengthy and expensive contracts just before leaving power. It might cost more to break the contracts, than keep them. A man's got to know his limitations, and so does a government.
p.s. the Harper spike shown at the end of his term was estimated from the planned budget, and the Trudeau portion is from the actuals, so it could be that Harper spend more or less than that amount.
It would be interesting (but difficult) to plot contracted spending by parties over time. Instead of booking the expense in the year it was incurred, book the expense when it was approved. That graph may look different (or not).
If there were real belt tightening the charts would look like Chretien's. We can't expect an immediate large drop as there are ongoing projects that will be completed or stopped, instead a downward trend should be seen the first couple years. Within three to four years we should expect to see real results. When it comes to waste, true waste, the gravy train, inefficiencies, etc....these can all be dealt with pretty quickly if they wanted to or could. As I said, the gravy train just changes tracks. Different coloured pigs at the trough are still pigs at the trough.
The data just does not back up the drama when it comes to stopping the gravy train.
A PM that served less than a year will of course have a lower yearly spend...
The chart does look really different when interest on the debt is added! There were times with high and low rates.
Chretien and team actually decreased the debt before Harper jacked it back up. Then Trudeau said hold my beer and watch this....
The data just does not back up the drama when it comes to stopping the gravy train.
A PM that served less than a year will of course have a lower yearly spend...
The chart does look really different when interest on the debt is added! There were times with high and low rates.
Chretien and team actually decreased the debt before Harper jacked it back up. Then Trudeau said hold my beer and watch this....
J_F
Guest
I'll let one of your rightie buddies answer that for you
here's the result from MM's search link
nice to see that while he disagrees with me
he provides a link that supports my position
thanks man!
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