How about that | GTAMotorcycle.com

How about that

Brian P

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How do they think they're going to enforce "mandatory"?

They could make life increasingly more difficult for the unvaccinated by, let's say, actually enforcing the QR-code proof of vaccination for various activities that they already have in place.

If someone crawls into their basement and stays there, there really isn't a way that they could force them to get vaccinated ... and, if they're holed up in their basement, they're not really a hazard anyhow. There shouldn't really be a problem with that.

I've been hearing complaints from unvaccinated people that they're being treated like second-class citizens, that life is being made difficult for them, etc. and you know what the response should be? "GOOD. That's the whole idea. If you don't want to get treated like that, then join the other 90% of adults and get yourself vaccinated. Your choice. Either that, or remain unvaccinated and stay holed up away from the rest of society."
 

mimico_polak

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Not sure how I feel about forced vaccinations. I'm good with the current system of making life more difficult for the holdouts, but forcing people into it...you technically are forcing them into it already.

Larger fines for the non-compliant businesses with actual penalties. That'll get them enforcing the vaccine mandats.

QC is making it mandatory to be vaccinated in order to purchase liquor and cannabis.

 

GreyGhost

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How do they think they're going to enforce "mandatory"?
Some countries are doing monthly fines until you get vaccinated. JT could add it to your bill in April. Make the fines progressive and that would quickly become mandatory for the vast majority. Others are trying the carrot with a cheque for getting the shot.

As with MP, I don't like mandatory. I am ok with letting people choose their own path but have no problem if them choosing not to help results in them not being able to participate.
 

Mad Mike

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As with MP, I don't like mandatory. I am ok with letting people choose their own path but have no problem if them choosing not to help results in them not being able to participate.
What's your view on mandatory helmet and seatbelt laws?
 

TwistedKestrel

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While I do think pretty much everybody should be getting it, having the government trying to force it seems like a really bad idea to me. There's already a faction out there that have demonstrated this is a hill they're literally willing to die on. I see this hyper-politicizing COVID even further, forcing elections, etc.

It's not necessarily a matter of principle to me, but timing
 

mimico_polak

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What's your view on mandatory helmet and seatbelt laws?
I'm still 100% onboard with mandatory helmets and seatbelt laws. Unfortunately our gov't has decided that certain religious factions are able to not have to obey this (but that's in previous other threads).

Mandatory vaccinations, seatbelts, and helmets...there will always be people that choose to skirt the law.

Exhibit A:

1641586279492.png

Exhibit B:

1641586317202.png

May not be a rational example, but for some reason I'm against mandating injections on unwilling people. The group that's currently holding out may get smaller, but there will remain a smaller, more vocal, and more militant group that literally dies on that hill. My anti-vax buddy is currently feeling ill....'just a cold' he says. Let's hope so.

I wish it didn't have to come to this, and it hasn't. I don't expect it to pull through anyway. They'll just keep taking away access from the unvaccinated until some magic number is reached.
 

Wind Shear

Well-known member
Not sure how I feel about forced vaccinations. I'm good with the current system of making life more difficult for the holdouts, but forcing people into it...you technically are forcing them into it already.

Larger fines for the non-compliant businesses with actual penalties. That'll get them enforcing the vaccine mandats.

QC is making it mandatory to be vaccinated in order to purchase liquor and cannabis.


Here I go in romper room

Don’t put the onus of compliance on businesses without any new laws to protect their practices/policies. That’s impossible for them to manage customers, and especially employees. I can tell you first hand there are MANY in the workforce, a good proportion with the backing of a union, who are eager to fight their employer on this. Even all the way to a human rights tribunal.
 

mimico_polak

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Here I go in romper room

Don’t put the onus of compliance on businesses without any new laws to protect their practices/policies. That’s impossible for them to manage customers, and especially employees. I can tell you first hand there are MANY in the workforce, a good proportion with the backing of a union, who are eager to fight their employer on this. Even all the way to a human rights tribunal.
You are correct. I should have explained more.

The onus should be on the government to provide the TOOLS and not leave the onus all on the businesses. However, we have seen examples of businesses fully flaunting the rules and not even considering to abide by them. At that stage, you're a part of the problem and not the solution.

My employer enforced the vaccine mandate. One buddy quit and went to another job, another one is still sitting at home (3 months now) unpaid based on principle. Which is fine. That's their choice 100%. As per original info, the second one should be fired by now...are they? I didn't ask.

There's literally zero chance of having this work, without the help of businesses in the enforcement of it. Unless I'm a total knob, please let me know what we could do.
 

GreyGhost

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What's your view on mandatory helmet and seatbelt laws?
Similar. If you want to participate in some activities, here are the requirements. Dont want to comply, avoid those activities. Hopefully the activities are designated based on quality science or risk assessment. Not all are. Hard hats to work in mostly finished floors in a condo for example. Its substantially similar to walking around in your own house for risk of a head knock. Glasses and boots often make sense though. Sign says brain bucket, I wear a brain bucket no matter how stupid it is. My other option is dont do the job and dont get paid.
 

Hack

Well-known member
If nothing else this last two years just proves, for better or worse, like it or not...
You do not have ANY say regarding your own person...
Its going to get worse...
Today it's this virus/vaccine thing...
Tomorrow it'll be political affiliation or done other issue

There is no line drawn between the will of the state and the individual.
 

GreyGhost

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Site Supporter
Here I go in romper room

Don’t put the onus of compliance on businesses without any new laws to protect their practices/policies. That’s impossible for them to manage customers, and especially employees. I can tell you first hand there are MANY in the workforce, a good proportion with the backing of a union, who are eager to fight their employer on this. Even all the way to a human rights tribunal.
They can and should push back as much as they think is reasonable. Ontario human rights tribunal has spoken and said they are dead in the water. Things are very clear, this is not a human rights issue that is protected. As for limiting freedoms, get them to point to a section of a governing document that allows travel anywhere ar any time. Watching a hi key game or eating at a restaurant are not protected.
 

Mad Mike

Well-known member
I'm still 100% onboard with mandatory helmets and seatbelt laws. Unfortunately our gov't has decided that certain religious factions are able to not have to obey this (but that's in previous other threads).

Mandatory vaccinations, seatbelts, and helmets...there will always be people that choose to skirt the law.

Exhibit A:

View attachment 52815

Exhibit B:

View attachment 52816

May not be a rational example, but for some reason I'm against mandating injections on unwilling people. The group that's currently holding out may get smaller, but there will remain a smaller, more vocal, and more militant group that literally dies on that hill. My anti-vax buddy is currently feeling ill....'just a cold' he says. Let's hope so.

I wish it didn't have to come to this, and it hasn't. I don't expect it to pull through anyway. They'll just keep taking away access from the unvaccinated until some magic number is reached.
I'm with you on the type of mandatory that is 'forced', I don't want to see anti-vaxers captured then forcibly vaccinated.

I'm not of the same opinion when it becomes mandatory that you're vaccinated to participate. I don't believe one's rights to Life, Liberty, and Security provide anyone a right to endanger me. So the unvaccinated may have the choice of no-vax, but with that, they chose to lose some privileges like attending sports events, bars and may limit their own options for employment.
 

GreyGhost

Well-known member
Site Supporter
If nothing else this last two years just proves, for better or worse, like it or not...
You do not have ANY say regarding your own person...
Its going to get worse...
Today it's this virus/vaccine thing...
Tomorrow it'll be political affiliation or done other issue

There is no line drawn between the will of the state and the individual.
Sure there is. Go live a subsistence life in an unincorporated municipality and you are 99% free from political or health intervention. Some people want the life they have with the benefits of society without the responsibilities of society.
 
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Mad Mike

Well-known member
If nothing else this last two years just proves, for better or worse, like it or not...
You do not have ANY say regarding your own person...
Its going to get worse...
Today it's this virus/vaccine thing...
Tomorrow it'll be political affiliation or done other issue

There is no line drawn between the will of the state and the individual.
I think you have say. You can choose not to be vaccinated, just like you can choose not to wear a seatbelt. In the former, you give up privileges of being in close proximity to others, and access places that inherently require close contact. On the latter you give up the privilege of driving.

As for a line, there is one - it's all there in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, try Section 7, part of Canada's Constitution.

Also remember in a democracy, the will of the state can be changed by its members.
 

Wind Shear

Well-known member
They can and should push back as much as they think is reasonable. Ontario human rights tribunal has spoken and said they are dead in the water. Things are very clear, this is not a human rights issue that is protected. As for limiting freedoms, get them to point to a section of a governing document that allows travel anywhere ar any time. Watching a hi key game or eating at a restaurant are not protected.

If you have any cases I can read up on I would genuinely appreciate it. Any I have seen so far were dismissed due to a legal loophole and skirted the issue

ie a customer submitted complaint against the city for being ejected from a business for mask bylaw - city was found not liable for individual business practice - case dismissed

 

GreyGhost

Well-known member
Site Supporter
If you have any cases I can read up on I would genuinely appreciate it. Any I have seen so far were dismissed due to a legal loophole and skirted the issue

ie a customer submitted complaint against the city for being ejected from a business for mask bylaw - city was found not liable for individual business practice - case dismissed

I have no case law. There was a paper published months ago by the tribunal that outlined possible attack vectors and their interpretation. They did not rule out the possibility of a successful case but muh freedoms or pointing to the charter was going to be a loser. I will try to post a link later.

Edit:
Ontario Human Right Commission not tribunal as I wrote.

 
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