Bill 7 $400 a day for hospital stay | Page 2 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Bill 7 $400 a day for hospital stay

I'm balls deep in this right now. Dad has Alz and is getting late in the game, he was walking and communicating a month ago, now he's unable to walk and communication is getting weaker. There is no option but LTC at this point. He's holding in hospital (OTH in Oakville - gong show - , then moved to JB in Burlington) where he's been comfortable.

LTC is tricky to navigate and the service providers doing the navigating are not terribly well organized or efficient. Here's how it works:

If you are at home, the local health network (LIHN) assesses the condition and makes an application to LTC, you pick up to 5 homes and go on a wait list. The lists have wait times of 5 to 18 months. If you are a 'crisis' placement, you get bumped up and the wait goes 30 days to 180 days. Times are typical -- it depends on turnover). Getting on the CRISIS list is possible when discharged to a transitional facility or to home for waiting a transition. It is hard if you start your LTC application while at home, or if healthy enough for a hospital to discharge you home.

If you are in a hospital when they determine LTC is necessary, things get very complicated as the community LIHN folks flip the file and responsibility to the hospital, hospitals work with an in-house LIHN rep. Arranging for LTC isn't done often direct from the hospital, as they are not very good at navigating the systems themselves.

You have 3 options:
1) Home Care. If you have the resources to care for someone in your house, LIHN may supply a hospital bed, hoyer lift, and 1 or 2 PWS visits per day to help with difficult tasks. There is no cost for this. When you take this option, the patient MIGHT qualify for the crisis list, but it appears this is only if waiting in the hospital. Transition to a preferred home is 30-180 days. If you are at home when the LTC assessment is done, they only place you on the crisis list if your primary caregiver is determined to be incapable of managing your

2) Transitional Care Beds. These are beds in nursing homes that do not generally deliver LTC. They are funded to provide LTC-like care to patients who waiting for permanent LTC. This offloads 1800 hospital beds that are currently providing this service. The problem is these are empty beds that nursing homes cannot fill, mostly in smaller centers 1-2hrs away from the city hospitals that are holding waiting LTC patients. When you take this option, the pairing is usually added to the crisis list so the transition to a preferred home is 30-180 days. The cost is about $100/day. Could be 70Km for urban dwellers, and 300km away for rural. In our case, there were 4 options, each was 70-100km away in rural towns (except Niagara Falls)

3) Private Nursing home care. This is not LTC, it's nursing home care with added services to provide a similar level of care to LTC. Most fix a contract price between $6K and $8K/mo for LTC level care. Supplies, (incontinence, A lot of services are limited, for example, an incontinent elder may get 2 changes a day, and additional changes are billed 'a-la-carte'. i.e $50 for a diaper change, $30 for meds delivery, $20 for a shave. Expect another bill from $500 - $1500/mo. NOTE: Patients go on a regular LTC waiting list if they chose this option.

We're bringing dad home, the fam is setting up a 7-day rotation to help mom care for him. LIHN is providing 2 x 1hr visits with PSWs to help, mostly getting from bed to chair. I have to convert the main floor laundry into a shower room. Not that big of a job, I have 10 days to relocate the laundry into the basement and install an accessible shower stall. An accessible bathroom is already there - I reno'd that 3 years back and had the forethought to put in a 36" door.

So far the hospital has been very cooperative, they promise to care for him until the house is ready. If we refused to play ball, they pick option 2 for you, but won't move your loved one until you consent. They do say their hands are tied on the $400 as of Nov 20 if you don't have a plan in motion.
Good post Mike and sorry you hear about your dad. A ridiculous part you left out ( or maybe didn't nkow) is that there are at least two lists above crisis. "Crisis" is more about branding and optics and should get called priority at most. I'm not sure what the criteria is to be placed on the higher lists.
 
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The hitch in the system which they do not appear to have attempted to solve is providing for transition to LTC closer to your support network. Clearing the hospital quickly makes sense. Unfortunately, once you are in LTC somewhere, you drop in priority on the lists and will likely never get a spot closer to your support. Support makes a huge difference in care and quality of life.
This too is complicated. If you are approved for LTC and are in hospital, you will likely get 'crisis' placement at one of the nearby homes you choose. This places you into a priority queue, you still go to a transitional facility to wait, but your wait will be much shorter than if you go to a nursing home and buy LTC.

Stupid rules.
 
Goof post Mike and sorry you hear about your dad. A ridiculous part you left out ( or maybe didn't nkow) is that there are at least two lists above crisis. "Crisis" is more about branding and optics and should get called priority at most. I'm not sure what the criteria is to be placed on the higher lists.
Good to know, they told me one 'crisis' list exists, and that you could be bumped to the top of that list if no transitional facility can accept you. In that case you stay in hospital without penalty.
 
If someone is paying for LTC themselves... Do they still go on a waiting list or have trouble getting a bed?
If they are approved for LTC, they wait... and pay.
 
Good to know, they told me one 'crisis' list exists, and that you could be bumped to the top of that list if no transitional facility can accept you. In that case you stay in hospital without penalty.
Maybe it has changed or varies based on lihn. My great aunt hung out on crisis list for a long time before she got bumped up a few more lists and into care. She was living in a typical small Toronto semi with a living room and kitchen on the main level. Bathroom or bed was a floor away and she was barely mobile and had bowel issues.
 
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Maybe it has changed or varies based on lihn. My great aunt hung out on crisis list for a long time before she got bumped up a few more lists and into care. She was living in a typical sma Toronto semi with a living room and kitchen on the main level. Bathroom or bed was a floor away and she was barely mobile and had bowel issues.
As I understand, the only way to get onto a crisis list is if the level of care is beyond what can be managed by family in your home. The patient would needs to be immobile or late stage dementia AND the primary caregiver cannot provide suitable home care (or dies). From what I understand there are lots of people that can qualify for LTC care but do not have an immediate need to be placed, they wait for beds.

Dad would have qualified 3 years ago - we managed at home until he could no longer walk and talk. A small number that needs it now, the system seems to have a way to offer them a priority.

It's not pretty, it's not easy, and the machine certainly has little empathy for those navigating it. I can't imagine how difficult a struggle this would be for a person lacking deep family support, or those with limited financial means.

When my time comes, I want to ride there myself. Maybe I need to make room in the garage for a Spyder -- just in case the day comes sooner than expected.
 
As I understand, the only way to get onto a crisis list is if the level of care is beyond what can be managed by family in your home. The patient would needs to be immobile or late stage dementia AND the primary caregiver cannot provide suitable home care (or dies). From what I understand there are lots of people that can qualify for LTC care but do not have an immediate need to be placed, they wait for beds.

Dad would have qualified 3 years ago - we managed at home until he could no longer walk and talk. A small number that needs it now, the system seems to have a way to offer them a priority.

It's not pretty, it's not easy, and the machine certainly has little empathy for those navigating it. I can't imagine how difficult a struggle this would be for a person lacking deep family support, or those with limited financial means.

When my time comes, I want to ride there myself. Maybe I need to make room in the garage for a Spyder -- just in case the day comes sooner than expected.
I've considered a cannonball run on a busa once the hour approaches. May set a record, may die trying.
 
@mike , my sympathies. The mom of the couple that were in Hawaii with me two weeks ago has been in Joe Brant Burlington waiting for a transfer to a transitional space , eventually on to LTC. Of course they find her a space two days after me hit Hawaii and the daughter with me is an only child . Mom gets a transfer ride , they F up the paperwork, none of her personal effects make the trip . What a mess , thankfully we had friends at home that stepped in to get the stuff needed done , but non of it is easy.
My wife works at OTMH and knows the systems , the daughter of the elderly gal works in the mobility industry ( sells wheelchairs ) and thus sort of knows how some of this works and yet it’s very hard to navigate .
I can’t imagine having no idea and starting from zero , and I’ll whole hearted say the caseworkers are way over their heads most days .


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I've considered a cannonball run on a busa once the hour approaches. May set a record, may die trying.
Watch the last episode of SOA 5 times then go.

Maybe I should start looking for a WLA.
 
@mike , my sympathies. The mom of the couple that were in Hawaii with me two weeks ago has been in Joe Brant Burlington waiting for a transfer to a transitional space , eventually on to LTC. Of course they find her a space two days after me hit Hawaii and the daughter with me is an only child . Mom gets a transfer ride , they F up the paperwork, none of her personal effects make the trip . What a mess , thankfully we had friends at home that stepped in to get the stuff needed done , but non of it is easy.
My wife works at OTMH and knows the systems , the daughter of the elderly gal works in the mobility industry ( sells wheelchairs ) and thus sort of knows how some of this works and yet it’s very hard to navigate .
I can’t imagine having no idea and starting from zero , and I’ll whole hearted say the caseworkers are way over their heads most days .


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Navigating isn't easy. Getting anywhere needs a lot of patience, and a fair bit of diplomacy and negotiating skills.

I found most administrators/caseworker know the procedures, but move slowly and really resist making decisions unless pressured by family or boss.

Perhaps they are in over their heads.
 
Mad Mike, in post #17, does a good job of outlining the process. Many of the other posts sound cruel, intolerant or uniformed. Getting old, infirm and not having enough money to buy a bed in a private retirement home at $5,000 / month is not lack of planning.

Government and our current "invisible" Minister of Health have known for decades that the number of LTC beds is insufficient to meet the need and they have failed repeatedly to address this. The vast majority of the 1,800 "bed blockers" in hospitals have not been dumped there by families who have stripped them of assets, they are there because the home care and LTC systems are fundamentally broken, short staffed and deliberately underfunded, nor are there beds to be discharged to anywhere, much less 90 km away.

Over the last 6 months 3 relatives have had to leave their homes due to an inability to continue to care for themselves safely at home, in spite of family support. One 97 year old, and the other 95, have moved from their condos to private retirement homes at $5k / month. They love their new home and are doing great. They have private pensions, CPP, OAS and investments to fall back on and can afford to pay the $60K annual cost. Relatively few people in Ontario can afford this type of care, the vast majority will rely on the public LTC system.

The 3rd person is 60, disabled, has no pension and is on a CPP disability pension and ODSP. This is a grim scenario for anyone and he is not goldbricking it to soak up public benefits to live the life of Reilly. If you are on ODSP you are poor, in particular if you have had a stroke, are partially paralyzed, in a wheelchair and spent 6 months in hospital, then multiple transition beds to be finally discharged to LTC. His LTC admission was fast tracked because he was a priority 1 (of 6) on the LTC wait list.

The journey to LTC was the end result of multiple hospital admissions since 2019, promises made by hospital discharge planners that were ignored by home care providers, home care providers that never showed up to provide care they committed to, emergency numbers that went to answering machines, messages that were never responded to, relief agencies that made supplemental care commitments and then abandoned them. Accountability for all of this non performance, incompetency and straight out lying to patients and family was absolutely zero.

So, if you can't afford a private retirement home, can't get proper home care to stay in your own home as long as possible you're going to end up in a LTC home. If you apply from home you're on a 12 - 24 month minimum waiting list, so good luck with that. If you become ill, you end up in hospital and if you can't return home you become a bed blocker.

The other thing is that you can't get blood from a stone. Fining a person $400 a day or $12,000 month is irrelevant if they have no funds to pay or if they refuse to pay. ODSP pays about $1,150 a month and 99% of recipients have no other assets. The working poor have no assets. This program is just a political stunt because the Ford government is devoid of other solutions, it looks good on paper, but is meaningless. If the person does have assets do we really think the government or a hospital is going to take someone to court to force them to pay?
 
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Interesting video - Good to see change.
 
The other thing is that you can't get blood from a stone. Fining a person $400 a day or $12,000 month is irrelevant if they have no funds to pay or if they refuse to pay. ODSP pays about $1,150 a month and 99% of recipients have no other assets. The working poor have no assets. This program is just a political stunt because the Ford government is devoid of other solutions, it looks good on paper, but is meaningless. If the person does have assets do we really think the government or a hospital is going to take someone to court to force them to pay?
I agree, for many this is meaningless posturing. For some (like the story told about the lady with a cottage in muskoka), it may help to free up a bed.
 
The other thing is that you can't get blood from a stone. Fining a person $400 a day or $12,000 month is irrelevant if they have no funds to pay or if they refuse to pay. ODSP pays about $1,150 a month and 99% of recipients have no other assets. The working poor have no assets. This program is just a political stunt because the Ford government is devoid of other solutions, it looks good on paper, but is meaningless. If the person does have assets do we really think the government or a hospital is going to take someone to court to force them to pay?
I can see how my response is cruel or minimizing the issue, but your last (added?) paragraph sums it up well.

This is nothing more than posturing, same as threatening CUPE strikers with $4k/day fines for being on strike 'illegally'. No one will collect, no one will chase this down.

They'll send you a letter, and then that'll be the end of that.

This is a broken system that requires massive inflow of cash, and more importantly proper management to make sure that it doesn't go to waste and pay the executives.
 
Interesting video - Good to see change.
Yes, it is good to see some change in the system.

When my relative was ready for discharge we reviewed the 30 some LTC homes in the Mississauga / Halton LHIN and we shortlisted about 10 based on tours, calls to all homes and internet research. Many LTC homes were ancient, had no A/C, no wifi, limited TV options, very poor reputations, high covid mortality or multiple outbreaks, large ward style rooms etc......

The place he is in right now talks about client focus, but a lot of that is posturing and just PR. There is very high staff turnover, but also long term unionized staff that seem indifferent and certainly not accountable for anything or to anyone. A good example is poor food quality, food temperature and long delays in serving food and inconsistent meals times. Feedback is listened to, but nothing changes and ultimately we're told that Bob has other options......... In other words, if you don't like it here then put in for a transfer to another LTC home and move.........
 
Yes, it is good to see some change in the system.

When my relative was ready for discharge we reviewed the 30 some LTC homes in the Mississauga / Halton LHIN and we shortlisted about 10 based on tours, calls to all homes and internet research. Many LTC homes were ancient, had no A/C, no wifi, limited TV options, very poor reputations, high covid mortality or multiple outbreaks, large ward style rooms etc......

The place he is in right now talks about client focus, but a lot of that is posturing and just PR. There is very high staff turnover, but also long term unionized staff that seem indifferent and certainly not accountable for anything or to anyone. A good example is poor food quality, food temperature and long delays in serving food and inconsistent meals times. Feedback is listened to, but nothing changes and ultimately we're told that Bob has other options......... In other words, if you don't like it here then put in for a transfer to another LTC home and move.........
Food budget is less than $10/day. I'm not sure if that includes labour and capital cost. I suspect that is ingredients and labour but excludes capital cost.
 
My son worked in LTC. He doesn't believe the "C" stands for care.
 
A neighbour has full blown dementia and is in her mid 80's. She owns her house so has well over a million in assets but her daughter is facing a five to ten year waiting list for people with dementia. The daughter wants humanitarian, trustworthy care, not a dump. The mother may well die at home.

One part of the problem is that we don't start planning until it's too late. Just like pensions and RRSPs, start when you start working, not when you turn 60. That means taking less expensive vacations, having fewer lattes, and a less prestigious vehicle. But I deserve.......

North America is unlike most parts of the world. Due to our resources we haven't learned to be frugal. Until the last generation one could get away with a grade 10 education. Get a factory job, buy a pickup truck and work your way through life. Then came free trade deals, opening trade with China and the global village. A lot of Jimmy Bobs and Becky Sues suddenly found the well running dry.

Solutions: Invent a time machine taking us back a couple of generations and teach responsibilities not rights.

Failing that, the government can raise taxes and never get re-elected. Or they could let people rot in hospital corridors and not get re-elected.

Mortgages are going up. Inflation is going up. Wages are losing ground. House prices are chaotic. Infrastructure has been ignored. Raising taxes just puts more people on the streets. Austerity is a financial land mine.

The people that created this mess want another mandate to fix it. And we shouldn't have to give up our lattes.
 
If they are approved for LTC, they wait... and pay.


I called a home to inquire about 2 years ago for an inlaw.. I just picked the place that provided the level of care needed and was close to the person's home. The place I called started talking about approval, references, planning and waiting lists... when I mentioned we would pay for it ourselves... The tone changed and they said they could accommodate immediately..
He didn't end up needing the home so didn't pursue it.
Based on that experience... I figured as long as it was being paid for privately.. getting a spot wasn't an issue.
Whenever I bring up the topic with my folks... I'm told I don't have to worry about it.


Edit: ReSTored's post#32 answered my question(s).
 
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