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Bicycle Protests

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Isn't the speed limit 40-50 around High Park, and less through High Park? The equivalent of 26 on a bicycle would be a motorcycle going 52 through a 40 kph school zone.
I meant inside the park, on the main loop. Cars are regularly going 20-30 over, which was again the case this evening as I was biking home.

Happy to report that I maimed and/or killed 3 pedestrians as I hit 50km/h in the downhill section of the loop. 👍 Productive day on the bike.

Screenshot_20220726-194813_Strava.jpg
 
This probably isn't going as he hoped. A cyclist got media attention for bitching about getting a ticket for rolling a stop sign. That is probably the number one complaint of the general public (when combined with red lights) about cyclists.

Meanwhile, the bicycling lawyer latched on to a single ticket given to a BIPOC and says police are targeting them. One does not make a pattern. He seems to be going away from reality and risks being completely ignored.


“Got a nice $110 ticket for rolling a stop sign in High Park from the Toronto police, which I look forward to fighting,” Doucet said. “Glad to see [Mayor John Tory] and [Toronto police] continue to prioritize the most important public safety issues in Toronto.”

“At 7:50 PM Friday night, a [Black, Indigenous, and people of colour] BIPOC cyclist was targeted by undercover and uniformed officers while trying to cycle safely in the park,” Shellnutt wrote.
 
So he breaks the law, gets caught, doesn't like it, and goes to social media for it? Awesome.

I hope one piece of evidence brought in is him looking forward to fighting it. That's a sure fire way to make sure the officer attends.

Judge: what did you witness?
Officer: saw that man right there run through a stop sign without stopping which is in violation of HTA XYZ
Judge: thank you. Guilty.
 
The bickering is still happening. Cops gave a bicycle a ticket for 26 km/h in a 20. Tory says police are putting safety first and don't deserve criticism.

I understand the concern with conflicts when riders are going 40+ but most bikes don't have speedometers and they are ticketing at 26? Seems far more political than safety motivated.


Mayor John Tory is standing behind police officers who have faced criticism for ticketing speeding cyclists in High Park in recent weeks, telling reporters that he believes they are “putting safety first” for all park users.
Tweets like this don't help things.

"Armed police" you might as well say man with pants.

The defund police tag is a nice touch as well.

The 'Biking Lawyer' is making it worse.
 
Also there's a flaw in those laws and regulations.
A cyclist must respect the speed limit, but a speedometer isn't required. A bell is mandatory, a light is mandatory (or reflectors). So are casual cyclists to use a butt dyno to determine speed?

Unless you invest in a fancy bike computer with gps, or a combo of a speed sensor + some kind of unit that can be mounted on your handlebars. You most likely don't know what speed youre going at.

My cheap single speed bike can reach 40+ without issue on a downhill and half the time i use it, i don't take my bike computer out. I might have my watch recording but lets agree that in a busy area, staring at your watch while waiting for the right data screen to come up on your watch isn't the safest bet (removing your stronger brake hand off the handlebars and reducing handling greatly)

Also re: the blitz for the guy going 26 in a 20 from what i understand, the cop was driving in the bike lane, and the cyclist overtook him (at said speed) and the altercation started there which ended in a ticket for the cyclist.
There's an app for that (probably 100 apps). Add a $10 handlebar mount for your phone or set the speed limit alarm in the app and you're golden!

Also re: the blitz... most 8 year olds know that when you play with fire, you can get burnt.
 
Personally, I think the campaign just might be a well-planned, well-executed safety communication strategy. Target a small focussed area rich with entitled cyclists who are aggravating pedestrians. The ticketed riders blast every ho-hum detail across social media, the mayor creates some buzz, the media and a 2-bit lawyer with a megaphone and soapbox play supporting roles by keeping the public informed and engaged. Any you completely sidestep any "Toronto for cars" controversy.

Brilliant!
 
There's an app for that (probably 100 apps). Add a $10 handlebar mount for your phone or set the speed limit alarm in the app and you're golden!

Also re: the blitz... most 8 year olds know that when you play with fire, you can get burnt.
Sure. But for our modern phones with image stabilization and what not though, you need a proper mount with dampener unless you want to foot the $1k bill of a phone replacement. That's still not an "excuse" though... you can get a cheap bike computer with a wheel sensor and what not for about $80. The gps ones are a bit pricier lol.

If i take my neighbour as an example of a casual cyclist, he bought a gravel bike ...they're not known for crazy speeds, he probably hasn't ridden in a decade or so. We go for a weekly bike ride to help him push his fitness a bit as other than pushing the stroller he's not very active. He doesn't really know what speed he's going, but we easily reach over 20km/h on any straight line. Reality is, most people getting on a bicycle to get around (commute) or for fitness aren't worried about speed per say. And due to the nature of our piecemeal bicycle network, people will hit different speed zones throughout their rides. Having an audible alert at 20 for all of your ride doesn't make sense unless you find a multi-use trail 'that' long.

On the other end of the spectrum you have these guys with power meters (like me lol) who have power targets they're trying to hit for their fitness and take "pulls" at the front of the group somewhat like interval training. I prefer doing it indoors myself, i'm not really a group type of guy. But some people get bored to death starting at a screen while biking and won't push as much by themselves so they go out to find a "safe space" outdoors to do it and raise their fitness.

Now sure, the blitz in that specific area might be targeted due to complaints and repeated behaviours being observed. And it's sure great to fan the flames of "cyclists vs motorists" and get media attention but doesn't do ANYTHING to fix the actual issue. Once again, if we design better infrastructure, we won't run into as many friction points that blow up like this one. Create initiatives that allow safer sharing of space.

We've had blitzes in my area because of loud pipes showing off most evening on weekends and people racing on a 40-50 km/h boulevard. Guess what!? The blitzes are over and the problem is still there.
 
Sure. But for our modern phones with image stabilization and what not though, you need a proper mount with dampener unless you want to foot the $1k bill of a phone replacement. That's still not an "excuse" though... you can get a cheap bike computer with a wheel sensor and what not for about $80. The gps ones are a bit pricier lol.

If i take my neighbour as an example of a casual cyclist, he bought a gravel bike ...they're not known for crazy speeds, he probably hasn't ridden in a decade or so. We go for a weekly bike ride to help him push his fitness a bit as other than pushing the stroller he's not very active. He doesn't really know what speed he's going, but we easily reach over 20km/h on any straight line. Reality is, most people getting on a bicycle to get around (commute) or for fitness aren't worried about speed per say. And due to the nature of our piecemeal bicycle network, people will hit different speed zones throughout their rides. Having an audible alert at 20 for all of your ride doesn't make sense unless you find a multi-use trail 'that' long.

On the other end of the spectrum you have these guys with power meters (like me lol) who have power targets they're trying to hit for their fitness and take "pulls" at the front of the group somewhat like interval training. I prefer doing it indoors myself, i'm not really a group type of guy. But some people get bored to death starting at a screen while biking and won't push as much by themselves so they go out to find a "safe space" outdoors to do it and raise their fitness.

Now sure, the blitz in that specific area might be targeted due to complaints and repeated behaviours being observed. And it's sure great to fan the flames of "cyclists vs motorists" and get media attention but doesn't do ANYTHING to fix the actual issue. Once again, if we design better infrastructure, we won't run into as many friction points that blow up like this one. Create initiatives that allow safer sharing of space.

We've had blitzes in my area because of loud pipes showing off most evening on weekends and people racing on a 40-50 km/h boulevard. Guess what!? The blitzes are over and the problem is still there.
You can get a backlit wired bike computer for <$30 these days.

I'm with you, work on fixing design issues. Are the cops just cherry picking the bottom of the hill to get highest speeds or is there a pedestrian crossing at that point? Seems to be a lot of pics of cop SUV's blocking bike lanes in high park. Why do they need their SUV to ticket cyclists? Seems like a great fit for bike cops or on foot. They need a computer, tickets, laser and tripod. It all easily fits in a backpack or saddle bag (or get dropped off and park the vehicle out of the way if they are extra lazy). There seems to be very little upside to cars in high park. If they eliminated vehicles does that open up options for better division of human powered traffic? It's been a hell of a long time since I rode there, is there only one steep downhill? They could make the bike trail unidirectional so the steep hill was up. Many cyclists will ***** and want a free for all but sadly that doesn't minimize conflicts.
 
Create initiatives that allow safer sharing of space.

I believe I said it before but it bears repeating. This thread is no place for common sense.

I'm here for the Schadenfreude. Watching a subset of marginalized road users on a forum for their subset of marginalized road users whining about a different subset of marginalized road users. The irony is delicious.
 
Sure. But for our modern phones with image stabilization and what not though, you need a proper mount with dampener unless you want to foot the $1k bill of a phone replacement. That's still not an "excuse" though... you can get a cheap bike computer with a wheel sensor and what not for about $80. The gps ones are a bit pricier lol.

If i take my neighbour as an example of a casual cyclist, he bought a gravel bike ...they're not known for crazy speeds, he probably hasn't ridden in a decade or so. We go for a weekly bike ride to help him push his fitness a bit as other than pushing the stroller he's not very active. He doesn't really know what speed he's going, but we easily reach over 20km/h on any straight line. Reality is, most people getting on a bicycle to get around (commute) or for fitness aren't worried about speed per say. And due to the nature of our piecemeal bicycle network, people will hit different speed zones throughout their rides. Having an audible alert at 20 for all of your ride doesn't make sense unless you find a multi-use trail 'that' long.

On the other end of the spectrum you have these guys with power meters (like me lol) who have power targets they're trying to hit for their fitness and take "pulls" at the front of the group somewhat like interval training. I prefer doing it indoors myself, i'm not really a group type of guy. But some people get bored to death starting at a screen while biking and won't push as much by themselves so they go out to find a "safe space" outdoors to do it and raise their fitness.

Now sure, the blitz in that specific area might be targeted due to complaints and repeated behaviours being observed. And it's sure great to fan the flames of "cyclists vs motorists" and get media attention but doesn't do ANYTHING to fix the actual issue. Once again, if we design better infrastructure, we won't run into as many friction points that blow up like this one. Create initiatives that allow safer sharing of space.

We've had blitzes in my area because of loud pipes showing off most evening on weekends and people racing on a 40-50 km/h boulevard. Guess what!? The blitzes are over and the problem is still there.
I've been riding and driving for a long time, it's doesnt take much time to "know your speed". I can't think of many times I needed to speed check my speedo when moving thru a subdivision.

On the argument of infrastructure, you have one... but it's not related to speed control or adherence to stop signs snd cross walks. Remember you're sharing the roads with motorists and paths with pedestrians. Cars can safely move thru the city and rural roads at much higher than posted speeds, the speeds are reduced more for the safety of cyclists (anyone notice rural speeds in most of York region have been dropped by 10kmh this year?) Same argument for cycles on paths, your speed is governed to make it safe for peds.

As for blitzes, I can tell you I hear less redline rumbles and screams in my hood since they started looking at fartcans and motogp exhausts. Same goes for street racing, haven't heard that that sound for a while.

At the end of the day everyone has to play nice. Enforcement is new for cyclists, might as well conform, or the hammer will just get bigger.
 
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This probably isn't going as he hoped. A cyclist got media attention for bitching about getting a ticket for rolling a stop sign. That is probably the number one complaint of the general public (when combined with red lights) about cyclists.

Meanwhile, the bicycling lawyer latched on to a single ticket given to a BIPOC and says police are targeting them. One does not make a pattern. He seems to be going away from reality and risks being completely ignored.


“Got a nice $110 ticket for rolling a stop sign in High Park from the Toronto police, which I look forward to fighting,” Doucet said. “Glad to see [Mayor John Tory] and [Toronto police] continue to prioritize the most important public safety issues in Toronto.”

“At 7:50 PM Friday night, a [Black, Indigenous, and people of colour] BIPOC cyclist was targeted by undercover and uniformed officers while trying to cycle safely in the park,” Shellnutt wrote.
This Doucet guy is an idiot. Of course people should stop at stop signs (except for a 2-hour window on early weekday mornings so that us reviled lycra-wearing hooligans can get some sort of workout in - that is all I'm campaigning for. Outside of 6-8am M-F, ticket the **** out of everyone that breaks the rules.)
 
I've been riding and driving for a long time, it's doesnt take much time to "know your speed". I can't think of many times I needed to speed check my speedo when moving thru a subdivision.

On the argument of infrastructure, you have one... but it's not related to speed control or adherence to stop signs snd cross walks. Remember you're sharing the roads with motorists and paths with pedestrians. Cars can safely move thru the city and rural roads at much higher than posted speeds, the speeds are reduced more for the safety of cyclists (anyone notice rural speeds in most of York region have been dropped by 10kmh this year?) Same argument for cycles on paths, your speed is governed to make it safe for pets.

As for blitzes, I can tell you I hear less redline rumbles and screams in my hood since they started looking at fartcans and motogp exhausts. Same goes for street racing, haven't heard that that sound for a while.

At the end of the day everyone has to play nice. Enforcement is new for cyclists, might as well conform, or the hammer will just get bigger.
The wider the road, the faster you'll be naturally dawn riding/driving. The wider the curve, the faster you'll go through it. A big part of speed control could be "forced" onto the road user by changing the design of the road. Often times subdivisions that are well designed have a lot of tight curves and streets that aren't "as" wide... which is exactly how it should be.

Roads have been mainly designed for speed and volume. But if you ask people living in a subdivision, they'll probably tell you that probably their bigger concern would be safety (not having kids get killed, not having cars crash into house, etc). And I've seen that concept being applied when i lived in brampton...a wide street in a relatively new-ish subdivision got the curb extended at crosswalks to
a) make drivers slow down more
b) reduce the distance the pedestrian has to be on the road for, to make it safer
There are tons of similar measures that can be taken to make roads safer and more enjoyable to use outside of a car, overall.

I think we're all agreeing that we have to share to road...but the roads are not designed and built with that in mind. They were built originally for speed and volume and our road users' behaviour reflects it. So you can have a sign that says 10km/h less than last month, but if the road is super wide and was designed for 30km/h more than the previous speed limit, you are setting up everyone for failure. That's part of the reason why everyone drives at 120-140 on the 401, and all that is done mainly without getting stopped by the OPP :ROFLMAO:


TL;DR: In life, too many people don't follow rules. Build it from the get go so people can't easily break the rules.
 
This Doucet guy is an idiot. Of course people should stop at stop signs (except for a 2-hour window on early weekday mornings so that us reviled lycra-wearing hooligans can get some sort of workout in - that is all I'm campaigning for. Outside of 6-8am M-F, ticket the **** out of everyone that breaks the rules.)
When I was doing serious cycling decades ago rat traps were the way to up performance but they were a pain at stops.

What is a stop?

One US state apparently isn't satisfied unless a motorcyclist puts down both feet. Many skilled cyclists can stop and keep both feet on the pedals. I believe it it was called slow racing but may be extinct because some guy did it for a whole day. How exciting, watching a living statue.

If someone gets a ticket for a rolling stop where the vehicle is extremely close to being stationary long enough for the rider / driver to look for and yield to conflicting traffic someone is being a prick. Maybe both.

On a motorcycle it's a pain to be stuck in creep and crawl. It is easier to let the car ahead move 50 feet and then catch up but if you do that two more cars take the space and the car behind you wants to eat your rear tire.

We close roads all the time for the Indy, festivals, parades, Caribbana etc. Once a year is tolerable but what is the prerequisite for exclusive usage on a daily basis? Money and political / social status?

That area was mostly single family homes 50 years ago. Now there are high rises and even the remaining single family homes have largely been split into four apartments. What special status do those people have to get out to walk the dog? Toronto has no more land and the population growth is upwards.

I knew a couple of competitive bicyclists and they said that stop and go was poor training, fine for the mom and pop exercise crowd but not racing. Where do the races take place in Toronto?

The sport isn't like table tennis that could be held in most school gymnasiums.

Some open spaces could include hydro right of ways, The boulevard between the east and west Lakeshore roads near Sunnyside (Aprox 1/4 mile). Do they have to be pretty as well?

If a space is found and the needed upgrades are for an exclusive minority should the funding come from the general coffers? Who funds the skating at city hall? What does that work out to per skater per hour?

What's the cost to pave a half mile of bicycle track and how many people does it serve? If a cycling group helps fund the work how do the keep the dog walkers away?

I don't hear of any plans that involve the users spending their own money. Would something work if a group funded the facility and had a long lease on the property, members only?

I believe there is an active model airplane circle at Centennial Park and to use it one must be a member of an association that handles liabilities. Do they pay rent?

Lots of questions and everyone has an answer that suits their situation.
 

Cyclist struck by police in High Park says same officer was 'harassing' riders​


Wonder if John Tory will say the police must follow and be subject to the same law and not criticize the public in asking to do so?
 
When I was doing serious cycling decades ago rat traps were the way to up performance but they were a pain at stops.

What is a stop?

One US state apparently isn't satisfied unless a motorcyclist puts down both feet. Many skilled cyclists can stop and keep both feet on the pedals. I believe it it was called slow racing but may be extinct because some guy did it for a whole day. How exciting, watching a living statue.

If someone gets a ticket for a rolling stop where the vehicle is extremely close to being stationary long enough for the rider / driver to look for and yield to conflicting traffic someone is being a prick. Maybe both.

On a motorcycle it's a pain to be stuck in creep and crawl. It is easier to let the car ahead move 50 feet and then catch up but if you do that two more cars take the space and the car behind you wants to eat your rear tire.

We close roads all the time for the Indy, festivals, parades, Caribbana etc. Once a year is tolerable but what is the prerequisite for exclusive usage on a daily basis? Money and political / social status?

That area was mostly single family homes 50 years ago. Now there are high rises and even the remaining single family homes have largely been split into four apartments. What special status do those people have to get out to walk the dog? Toronto has no more land and the population growth is upwards.

I knew a couple of competitive bicyclists and they said that stop and go was poor training, fine for the mom and pop exercise crowd but not racing. Where do the races take place in Toronto?

The sport isn't like table tennis that could be held in most school gymnasiums.

Some open spaces could include hydro right of ways, The boulevard between the east and west Lakeshore roads near Sunnyside (Aprox 1/4 mile). Do they have to be pretty as well?

If a space is found and the needed upgrades are for an exclusive minority should the funding come from the general coffers? Who funds the skating at city hall? What does that work out to per skater per hour?

What's the cost to pave a half mile of bicycle track and how many people does it serve? If a cycling group helps fund the work how do the keep the dog walkers away?

I don't hear of any plans that involve the users spending their own money. Would something work if a group funded the facility and had a long lease on the property, members only?

I believe there is an active model airplane circle at Centennial Park and to use it one must be a member of an association that handles liabilities. Do they pay rent?

Lots of questions and everyone has an answer that suits their situation.
When car drivers needed another congestion free, time saving route across the city, the 407 was built.

Maybe cyclists should ask for the same. A high speed bicycle route along side the DVP and 407 right of ways. Call it the BIKE07 path, have it supported by 20c/km tolls.
 
When car drivers needed another congestion free, time saving route across the city, the 407 was built.

Maybe cyclists should ask for the same. A high speed bicycle route along side the DVP and 407 right of ways. Call it the BIKE07 path, have it supported by 20c/km tolls.
That could be awesome. Not sure it would be financially viable but worth running the numbers. Lots of people dropping close to five figures on a bike, a safe place to ride at speed would be nice and would be a minimal hit to disposable income.
 
@nobbie48 puts up a good point…if a particular group wants exclusive rights to public roads / infrastructure … no problem … pay for it.

Indy, festivals, marathons and the like are all permitted activities with the proper permits and safety precautions in place.

Here is High Park for your exclusive use between the hours of x-y on day z. Fill up this permit, here is the contact for Police to be there and paramedics to be nearby.

Cost is X/Year and feel free to charge whatever you want to the users. But you have exclusive rights and if anyone trespasses we will fine them accordingly.
 
There's an app for that (probably 100 apps). Add a $10 handlebar mount for your phone or set the speed limit alarm in the app and you're golden!

Also re: the blitz... most 8 year olds know that when you play with fire, you can get burnt.
Why would you want to do that? I agree with LePhillou that it would be hard to prove that a bicyclist knows that they are speeding with no speedometer. How do all of these tickets stick? Or is it just that all "serious" bicyclists have speedometers.
 
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