Anybody tired of the Teacher's Strikes?

[ricplayer]

From what I hear the only "bitching" teachers seem to be doing is asking that their salaries keep up with inflation and that sufficient investment in the country's future be made.

I didn’t receive COL increases for 7 years in my last position, so I left (there were other reasons as well). Again, it’s not that difficult to do. There is websites and consultants that help with career change. People do it every day.

I don’t get why teachers refuse to leave a job they are clearly not happy with. Oh wait, there must be some reason to stay, right? ****** kids and parents, a crappy government, long hours and worrying all summer long about how your new class will be in September sounds stressful.

there must be another reason to stay on. Maybe $$$.

 

[jc100]

I didn’t receive COL increases for 7 years in my last position, so I left (there were other reasons as well). Again, it’s not that difficult to do. There is websites and consultants that help with career change. People do it every day.

I don’t get why teachers refuse to leave a job they are clearly not happy with. Oh wait, there must be some reason to stay, right? ****** kids and parents, a crappy government, long hours and worrying all summer long about how your new class will be in September sounds stressful.

there must be another reason to stay on. Maybe $$$.

Some people love their jobs for other reasons. I've met plenty of dedicated teachers. Not everyone is a cynical worker in it for just #1.

 

[Mad Mike]

Some people love their jobs for other reasons. I've met plenty of dedicated teachers. Not everyone is a cynical worker in it for just #1.

I know lots of teachers, I can't think of any who don't take their job seriously. I can say that once you cut thru the party line bull*&^ with them, they all agree the money, time off, short career+long pension keep them in the game. I have never met a tenured teacher who was able to leave the teaching for a better job.

I regularly meet teachers who abandon the quest as they cannot survive the 5+ year wait to get a union gig.

 

[jc100]

I know lots of teachers, I can't think of any who don't take their job seriously. I can say that once you cut thru the party line bull*&^ with them, they all agree the money, time off, short career+long pension keep them in the game. I have never met a tenured teacher who was able to leave the teaching for a better job.

I regularly meet teachers who abandon the quest as they cannot survive the 5+ year wait to get a union gig.

There shouldn’t be an issue paying for dedication and competency then. I’ve no issue with getting rid of those that are only in it for the perks and can’t perform.

 

[GreyGhost]

Sam Hammond just gave quite a good press briefing. Unlike many politicians (Lecce and Trudeau come quickly to mind), he didn't dodge and weave and just make you want to punch him and ignore everything coming out of their mouths. In short, no ETFO strikes for the next two weeks.

Talked to an ETFO member this morning (she is a lovely EA and truly in it for the students). Union told them to picket for 20 minutes every day during their lunch (on a street with almost no traffic so it is quite useless other than saying you did it). This fight is wearing her down. She just wants to be in the class with the kids and she is tired.

EDIT:
Lecce says the Catholic talks derailed because the union required a 6% bump in benefits. The union blamed the government for the breakdown. Again, who knows where the truth lies, both sides are more interested in spin than a deal.

 

[ricplayer]

There shouldn’t be an issue paying for dedication and competency then. I’ve no issue with getting rid of those that are only in it for the perks and can’t perform.

I completely agree, and isn't that part of sticking point the gov is trying to negotiate out of the current deal?

 

[ricplayer]

Talked to an ETFO member this morning (she is a lovely EA and truly in it for the students). Union told them to picket for 20 minutes every day during their lunch (on a street with almost no traffic so it is quite useless other than saying you did it). This fight is wearing her down. She just wants to be in the class with the kids and she is tired.

EDIT:
Lecce says the Catholic talks derailed because the union required a 6% bump in benefits. The union blamed the government for the breakdown. Again, who knows where the truth lies, both sides are more interested in spin than a deal.

Yes, the spin is crazy from both sides. I unfortunately know both types of teachers, in it for themselves and in it for the kids. Both of my kids have been through the system with mixed experiences from both types.

I had a principal tell me in complete frustration that he needs to fire a teacher but can't. He went to the board and she got transferred to another school. I won't go into details, but she taught both of my kids, and literally treated the students like she owned them, it was a tough situation for 11 year olds' to be in. They couldn't understand why she didn't like them when they didn't do anything wrong. Hard to tell a kid who's live should be full of happiness that some people are just idiots and to ignore them. They had excellent teachers too, and they keep in touch with them to this day.

No denying there a good teachers out there, but the union needs to stop the rhetoric. Keep quiet and negotiate in good faith.

 

[FullMotoJacket]

Why Are Millennial Teachers Leaving? | Werklund Education Research | University of Calgary

Retaining teachers is an ongoing conversation in Canadian education. In fact, 40% of new teachers in Alberta leave the profession within five years – with millennials making up the majority of new teachers entering in recent years. With millennial employees seeking diversity, flexibility and...

werklund.ucalgary.ca

"Of the millennials that chose to leave, majority recognized that their personalities did not fit with the teaching environments in which they found themselves, and the structure of K-12 schooling."

Reads: This is putting too much of a strain on keeping tabs on my Instagram account

 

[Renboy]

"All of the participants who left the profession had begun their post-secondary education without the explicit goal of becoming teachers, while all of the participants who stayed in teaching knew they wanted to become teachers upon entering their post-secondary education."
That was from the first article LePhillou posted.

The short of the second article addresses the fact that teachers are ill-prepared for the job they've chosen.

And in the last article:
"I can tell you exactly why I'm going," he said.

"When I started teaching, I had people for support. I had two counsellors in that school. . . . There were people who were tracking kids at risk. If I had kids who couldn't read, I'd send them to the reading room, and there were people expert in helping those kids."

Teacher salary has nothing to do with the problems, it actually is the cause of the problems. The gov't has limited resources, so if you spend more on teachers, you have to spend less on, textbooks, or other teacher aids. When you increase the salary, you attract people that have no real desire to be teachers to that profession. So you're left with a bunch of people waiting in line for a product they don't really want just because it's on sale. Then, those same people have buyers remorse and complain about the quality of the product. If, and only if you think giving a mechanic carte blanche to fix a car he has no idea what is wrong with is a good idea, then at that point you should support wage increases for teachers.

 

[Renboy]

The problems and fixes for education:
1. Fail students that deserve to fail. Gold stars for mediocrity are not tolerated in the working world, why are they supported in education? If Johnny deserves a failing mark, give the f----r a failing mark. Mom and dad don't like it, send those f----rs to the principal to deal with.
2. Lower the highest pay bracket (a lot), and raise the lowest one (a bit). Old teachers have less work to do than new ones, yet they can make twice as much money, that's absurd. New teachers have to prepare what they need to teach and how they're going to do it, this takes time. Old teachers did that 25 years ago and have been recycling ever since. I'd be pretty ****** if I worked for someone and the guy beside me did less work but got paid twice as much.
3. Eliminate the Catholic school board. Another absurdity is when you drive down the street to see two groups of kids waiting for different buses to take them to two different schools that are around the corner from each other. Kid goes to the school closest to their residence. Money saved on transportation costs, and less traffic in the morning/afternoon. Teach kids about religion the same as any other subject, don't indoctrinate them. And teach them about all the religions, this isn't Sunday school.
4. Separate kids based on ability much younger. Why does a teacher have to teach a grade four class where the range of ability can vary from grade two level math, to grade six level math (the entire bell curve)? That helps no one. A ten year old student might be great at science and math, working at grade seven levels, be acceptable at history/geography/French working at grade five levels, and have difficulty with reading/writing, working at grade three levels. Why not move the child to classes where they are surrounded by intellectual peers rather than age based peers? This would be so much better for both the students and the teachers.

 

[GreyGhost]

The problems and fixes for education:
1. Fail students that deserve to fail. Gold stars for mediocrity are not tolerated in the working world, why are they supported in education? If Johnny deserves a failing mark, give the f----r a failing mark. Mom and dad don't like it, send those f----rs to the principal to deal with.
2. Lower the highest pay bracket (a lot), and raise the lowest one (a bit). Old teachers have less work to do than new ones, yet they can make twice as much money, that's absurd. New teachers have to prepare what they need to teach and how they're going to do it, this takes time. Old teachers did that 25 years ago and have been recycling ever since. I'd be pretty ****** if I worked for someone and the guy beside me did less work but got paid twice as much.
3. Eliminate the Catholic school board. Another absurdity is when you drive down the street to see two groups of kids waiting for different buses to take them to two different schools that are around the corner from each other. Kid goes to the school closest to their residence. Money saved on transportation costs, and less traffic in the morning/afternoon. Teach kids about religion the same as any other subject, don't indoctrinate them. And teach them about all the religions, this isn't Sunday school.
4. Separate kids based on ability much younger. Why does a teacher have to teach a grade four class where the range of ability can vary from grade two level math, to grade six level math (the entire bell curve)? That helps no one. A ten year old student might be great at science and math, working at grade seven levels, be acceptable at history/geography/French working at grade five levels, and have difficulty with reading/writing, working at grade three levels. Why not move the child to classes where they are surrounded by intellectual peers rather than age based peers? This would be so much better for both the students and the teachers.

I like 1 to 3. I would add EA's to 2. The pay gap between EA's and teachers for very similar work is horrendous.

4 is complicated. It seems like a good start, but it can create a self-fulfilling prophecy. It happens all the time in sports. You identify the promising players and then you give them much more attention, coaching, practice, game time, etc. In a few years, you say "look how much better the players we identified are than the average players". Well no *&^*&^ sherlock, you have invested twice the time, energy and money into those that were identified. It would be really interesting to see what would happen if certain players were identified, but then all players had the same experience. What would the gap look like? Would their be a consistent gap or would some of the identified players slide back while some of the average players pulled into the lead? All of the same thinking applies to 4. The people ahead of the curve will likely thrive, those behind the curve will be left behind never to catch up. It's a scary thought to think that by grade four, your future potential education and by extension employment options will have been decided by someone that spends only a few minutes ranking each student in each subject. Let's be honest, once someone gets behind, schools will not (or maybe more accurately cannot) invest the time and money to get them back to the expected level. By segregating them, you remove their exposure to more advanced concepts and ensure without substantial parental or tutor involvement they will never catch up.

 

[jc100]

Hmm. So someone with years and years experience should have their salary cut under your proposal? Sounds a bit pinko to me. Let’s apply the same thing to upper management and directors that do “work” on the golf course too. Let’s apply the same thing to doctors too and lower their salaries and put the savings into buying more MRIs and CAT scanners that will be run by the doctors that are left.

Failing students is good, people need to learn to fail in order to succeed. However, with kids is that it? Fail and sorry but you lose at the game of life? Or would it be a little more humane to find out why they failed and try to get them to a point where they succeed at something? Only problem is...you need good staff to do this...but your proposal just put off the good staff from ever becoming teachers by removing the incentive of a decent salary.

Armchair commentary is great and all until you actually try on someone’s shoes for a day. I teach university students and do a lot of it. I'm burnt out after two terms from teaching, marking, admin, managing TAs, office hours, dealing with bereavements/illnesses/disabilities, dealing with complaints, sometimes dealing with parents, arranging accommodations, consoling, motivating, admonishing. I have a short break then do it all again in the Spring/Summer with online courses. There’s a ton more that’s done too and everyone I teach is a supposedly mature individual. I can’t imagine what high school teachers go through with students that aren’t as mature or self confident. I only know I couldn’t do it and I totally admire those that can and they should have a very decent living wage to go along with that skill.

 

[Renboy]

I didn't say to spend less time with them, but put them with kids that are at their same level for each subject. Johnny would be in a class that ranges in ages rather than abilities. So he would still get the same 2 hours per week in math, but because he's in a class where everyone is at the same level and speed he would actually advance faster than if he was in a class where the teacher has to constantly shift gears between the smart kids and the less smart kids. This way the advanced kids wouldn't be held back by the average, and the struggling kids wouldn't keep struggling because they can't make the average for each subject in school. Putting green riders on the track at the same time as red riders doesn't do anyone any favours.

 

[Renboy]

Hmm. So someone with years and years experience should have their salary cut under your proposal? Sounds a bit pinko to me. Let’s apply the same thing to upper management and directors that do “work” on the golf course too. Let’s apply the same thing to doctors too and lower their salaries and put the savings into buying more MRIs and CAT scanners that will be run by the doctors that are left.

Failing students is good, people need to learn to fail in order to succeed. However, with kids is that it? Fail and sorry but you lose at the game of life? Or would it be a little more humane to find out why they failed and try to get them to a point where they succeed at something? Only problem is...you need good staff to do this...but your proposal just put off the good staff from ever becoming teachers by removing the incentive of a decent salary.

Armchair commentary is great and all until you actually try on someone’s shoes for a day. I teach university students and do a lot of it. I'm burnt out after two terms from teaching, marking, admin, managing TAs, office hours, dealing with bereavements/illnesses/disabilities, dealing with complaints, sometimes dealing with parents, arranging accommodations, consoling, motivating, admonishing. I have a short break then do it all again in the Spring/Summer with online courses. There’s a ton more that’s done too and everyone I teach is a supposedly mature individual. I can’t imagine what high school teachers go through with students that aren’t as mature or self confident. I only know I couldn’t do it and I totally admire those that can and they should have a very decent living wage to go along with that skill.

If you look in the private sector, that's how it works. You don't see one bricklayer making $50/hour because he's been at a company for 20 years while the new guy makes $25/hour even though he lays more bricks than the old guy.

 

[jc100]

I didn't say to spend less time with them, but put them with kids that are at their same level for each subject. Johnny would be in a class that ranges in ages rather than abilities. So he would still get the same 2 hours per week in math, but because he's in a class where everyone is at the same level and speed he would actually advance faster than if he was in a class where the teacher has to constantly shift gears between the smart kids and the less smart kids. This way the advanced kids wouldn't be held back by the average, and the struggling kids wouldn't keep struggling because they can't make the average for each subject in school. Putting green riders on the track at the same time as red riders doesn't do anyone any favours.

You need investment in the system to do this though. There’s arguments for and against “streaming”.

 

[jc100]

If you look in the private sector, that's how it works. You don't see one bricklayer making $50/hour because he's been at a company for 20 years while the new guy makes $25/hour even though he lays more bricks than the old guy.

In the private sector you see CEOs frequently get 100s (or more) x the salary of the workers. Are you sure you want to go down that road? Also if the bricklayers were unionized then yes, you’d see experience rewarded.

 

[Renboy]

Finally, teach kids what they actually need to survive. Every day in Canada virtually everyone (adults) drives, everyone deals with money, and everyone eats. Why the hell doesn't every kid come out of school knowing how to drive, how to use money effectively, and how to cook a meal so they don't have to buy crap at fast food restaurants so they don't starve to death? Ancient civilizations was an interesting class in high school I'll admit, but absolutely useless as far as necessity is concerned. I have yet to use anything I learned in that class and I took it 25 years ago.

 

[Renboy]

You need investment in the system to do this though. There’s arguments for and against “streaming”.

So handing more money to teachers is the better approach in your opinion rather than "investment in the system"?

 

[jc100]

Finally, teach kids what they actually need to survive. Every day in Canada virtually everyone (adults) drives, everyone deals with money, and everyone eats. Why the hell doesn't every kid come out of school knowing how to drive, how to use money effectively, and how to cook a meal so they don't have to buy crap at fast food restaurants so they don't starve to death? Ancient civilizations was an interesting class in high school I'll admit, but absolutely useless as far as necessity is concerned. I have yet to use anything I learned in that class and I took it 25 years ago.

Necessity for a civilized society with a culture is different to what you personally might list as a necessity for life though. I’m not big on theatre but I can see how it adds culture to society that enriches it rather than degrades it. Same with art, dance etc.

 

[Renboy]

In the private sector you see CEOs frequently get 100s (or more) x the salary of the workers. Are you sure you want to go down that road? Also if the bricklayers were unionized then yes, you’d see experience rewarded.

You're not comparing apples to apples. A CEO of a construction company has vastly different roles and responsibilities than a mason that works for the company.