Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

[Brian P]

And on a related note:

Number of times that I have had to replace the starter pull-cord on a Honda HS520 snowblower because of the half-baked way they routed the cord which caused it to rub against one of the cross-bars of the handle: 2

Amount of effort required to fix issue after the second failure (drill new hole in handle and reposition guide below handle instead of above which required taking apart the guide and putting it back together facing the other way): 15 minutes

Why couldn't Honda have figured this out? no idea

 

[Neil_V]

It will not make it to Windsor and back - I had a business trip like that a few weeks ago. My criteria for going EV with the daily driver is when non-Tesla SAE Combo fast-charging stations are available at all of the OnRoute service centers. If that's in place (and I'm sure it will be in the not too distant future) I can cover my entire service area with an EV and I will only have to use a quick-charging station about once every couple of months. I can deal with needing a half-hour top-up charge if I have to go to Windsor and back once every couple of months.

the only thing I would add is if this windsor trip is in -15 temperatures, you may need more than half an hour, even at a quick charge station.

 

[Neil_V]

And on a related note:

Number of times that I have had to replace the starter pull-cord on a Honda HS520 snowblower because of the half-baked way they routed the cord which caused it to rub against one of the cross-bars of the handle: 2

Amount of effort required to fix issue after the second failure (drill new hole in handle and reposition guide below handle instead of above which required taking apart the guide and putting it back together facing the other way): 15 minutes

Why couldn't Honda have figured this out? no idea

My love for honda died with the 2000 SIR... and my teens

 

[PrivatePilot]

the only thing I would add is if this windsor trip is in -15 temperatures, you may need more than half an hour, even at a quick charge station.

A big part of the typical decreased winter range on a pure EV has to do with the initial cabin heating where the heater is running full tilt for an extended period to heat the air and the interior (all the plastic, leather, etc) itself. I suspect that once the cabin as a whole has reached a comfortable temperature and the HVAC system is only tasked with *maintaining* versus heating, the range decreases would drop accordingly.

On the flip side, multiple short trips in extreme cold where the HVAC is constantly going full tilt, never really heats up the interior bits, and then loses all the gains when the driver stops and parks for 20 minutes, only to start all over again would probably have the biggest effect.

My love for honda died with the 2000 SIR... and my teens

I'm not anti Honda. Hell, I ride one as everyone here knows, and I have owned a lot of great Honda power equipment over the years (generators, lawn mowers, etc), but for me it comes down to what I'm seeking and will give me the best bang for our buck, vs what certain others are suggesting I need....despite the facts.

 

[inreb]

On the flip side, multiple short trips in extreme cold where the HVAC is constantly going full tilt, never really heats up the interior bits, and then loses all the gains when the driver stops and parks for 20 minutes, only to start all over again would probably have the biggest effect.

This is why cars need a major rethink. I'm rethinking occupant capsule from 6" thick minimum styrofoam. Also those glove heat packets? Rethink floor mats. Turning gasoline into heat has already been debunked. No way, no how.

 

[PrivatePilot]

This is why cars need a major rethink. I'm rethinking occupant capsule from 6" thick minimum styrofoam. Also those glove heat packets? Rethink floor mats. Turning gasoline into heat has already been debunked. No way, no how.

I agree, the biggest reason that hasn't happened yet is that heat is a cheap byproduct of any internal combustion engine, and there's usually far more of it than what is needed to heat the passenger compartment.

Look at it from this perspective, if you could heat your house for virtually free as a byproduct of simply living in it, would one go out of their way to spend a lot of time, money, inconvenience and effort of insulating it to the extreme? Or just turn up the heat more, since that heat is otherwise just going to be wasted anyways.

The preheating cycle on EV's aims to reduce that initial load, but I'd be curious to know if they've been built to better insulation standards in order to help reduce the loads after that initial but.

 

[inreb]

Maybe the charging stations (and home) could supply electrical power for a small space heater?

 

[GreyGhost]

but I'd be curious to know if they've been built to better insulation standards in order to help reduce the loads after that initial but.

Windows suck at insulating. Like really suck. Good double glazed windows in your house are ~R4, I haven't seen data on automotive windows but I'd expect R2 or less. I think RR may use double glazing and they have 2+ inches of insulation on most panels so they are probably the best insulated vehicles possible today (obviously at an incredible price). If someone is really bored they could look at the size of the RR heater core vs a heater core in a large domestic car and see if there is much difference (I suspect not as they still need lots of heat to initially bring the cabin up to temp).

Between that, all of the door/trunk seals, a metal box and the required air exchanges for safety it requires a ton of heat. Replace the windows with solid panels (maybe with screens to mimic vision?), use carbon for the body and dump most of the doors and you will be making progress (although you have something that is excessively expensive, complicated, annoying and prone to failure).

 

[mxs]

with the volts puny 1.5liter 100 hp engine to putter away. I might as well drive a go-cart. with a hybrid, I still get 200+hp I get 50mpg, and plenty of power on tap.

Oh boy, it 's been a while since I have seen someone as confused as you posting about cars of all flavors. I just hope that many people don't fall for your advise. Or perhaps you want to tell us, you are being sarcastic, right? You don't mean the stuff you type, do you?

 

[mxs]

Windows suck at insulating. Like really suck. Good double glazed windows in your house are ~R4, I haven't seen data on automotive windows but I'd expect R2 or less. I think RR may use double glazing and they have 2+ inches of insulation on most panels so they are probably the best insulated vehicles possible today (obviously at an incredible price). If someone is really bored they could look at the size of the RR heater core vs a heater core in a large domestic car and see if there is much difference (I suspect not as they still need lots of heat to initially bring the cabin up to temp).

Between that, all of the door/trunk seals, a metal box and the required air exchanges for safety it requires a ton of heat. Replace the windows with solid panels (maybe with screens to mimic vision?), use carbon for the body and dump most of the doors and you will be making progress (although you have something that is excessively expensive, complicated, annoying and prone to failure).

Tesla is already working on some glass materials of the future. They have created a separate glass technology group. If you look at model 3 and the amount of glass it has from front lip all the way to the back, they surely must have thought of heat loss etc.. I would not go as far as saying that it is the group's priority, but kind of given it is somewhere on the list.

In the meantime, gloves, hat and long johns it is for us in the North ...

 

[Neil_V]

A big part of the typical decreased winter range on a pure EV has to do with the initial cabin heating where the heater is running full tilt for an extended period to heat the air and the interior (all the plastic, leather, etc) itself. I suspect that once the cabin as a whole has reached a comfortable temperature and the HVAC system is only tasked with *maintaining* versus heating, the range decreases would drop accordingly.

I was referring to a batteries ability to take a charge in sub-zero temps; the decrease in, to be more accurate.


https://transportevolved.com/2014/1...ric-car-101-charging-takes-longer-30-minutes/

 

[PrivatePilot]

Between that, all of the door/trunk seals, a metal box and the required air exchanges for safety it requires a ton of heat. Replace the windows with solid panels (maybe with screens to mimic vision?), use carbon for the body and dump most of the doors and you will be making progress (although you have something that is excessively expensive, complicated, annoying and prone to failure).

Yes, the big challenge in a car is the requirement for air exchange. Anyone who's ever driven on a cold winter day with 3 or 4 adults in the car and then switched the HVAC to recycle vs fresh knows what soon follows.

Anyhow, I found a Volt at the same dealer (about 10 minutes from my house) that we bought the 300 from. Not committing to anything at the moment, but I'm going to go look at it tomorrow.

 

[inreb]

Not holding you to a commitment but I don't mind saying I'm a little excited. One idiom will take you a long way, money talks ******** walks.

 

[PrivatePilot]

So, I went and test drove a Volt today. A 2012 with only 75K on it...which may have a lot to do with the high-ish asking price, but I have to respect the low mileage thing as part of that.

I was amazed.

First off, the heat concerns I had are completely gone. I got in while the car was still plugged in, turned on the heat and configured it for "Comfort" instead of "Eco" and almost instantly there was hot air blowing out of the vents and the cabin quickly warmed up in near silence. I otherwise left the HVAC in "Auto" mode and inside maybe 5 minutes I noticed the fan speed slowing down and the HVAC "battery utilization" meter dropping along with it. Cool.

I sat in it for a solid 20 minutes pushing buttons and sorting through menus to get a feel for things. FWIW when I first got in the meter showed 51 electric Kilometers but after the HVAC heat surge (even when plugged in) it dropped to 46 - still not bad for a complete heat up from -5 outside to 23 degrees inside, but as I read and expected since it was only plugged into the Level 1 (110v) charger the HVAC did surf some power off the battery pack as well as drawing what it could from the grid. Preheating on a 220v charger doesn't have this effect as the charger can supply enough amps to fully run the HVAC without the need to touch the battery.

Anyhow, I went out for about a 10 minute drive afterwards. WOW. Amazing. I'd venture to say many wouldn't even realize they were driving an electric car aside from the fact it's oddly quiet - when you're stopped the only noise is the HVAC, and when you push the gas pedal the only noise is the road.

The brakes, which I've read described as feeling a bit weird by some (because of the regenerative braking) felt fine to me. Yes, I could feel a slight difference, but again, I'm a gearhead who typically notices and hears things others don't, so I do notice this sort of thing - but really, it's nothing, though I did like to see that braking normally was regenerating power to the battery pack.

Acceleration was the biggest wow for me - I've always read about the torque of electric vs gas (and as I've mentioned, I drive a 380HP v8, so I'm not easily amazed), but I put it into "sport mode", stomped the accelerator...and holy crap does it ever take off.

Normal driving is effortless - the HVAC did it's thing (I switched it to "Eco" mode while driving and noticed zero difference in comfort level honestly) and it was a total non event aside from the cool factor of no engine. I watched the eco-meter thing on the cluster carefully during acceleration and deceleration and was surprised to see that even moderately brisk acceleration didn't move the meter into the "wasteful" zone, although stomping the pedal even more could quickly push it out of the eco envelope...but again, I expected to see it move into the yellow zone a lot easier.

The engine never started. At all. I got back to the dealer, popped the hood to look under there, and it was all stone cold still.

I liked it and it certainly whetted my appetite for the realities of a EV.

 

[inreb]

Totally chuffed that twice around planet earth is considered low mileage. We've come a long way baby.

 

[fastar1]

Shouldn't you have the wifey test drive it? Maybe the brake pedal thing will bother her.

BTW you didn't notice that the gas pedal was broken; it didn't use any gas!

 

[conundrum]

Not a fan of the Volt, but if the Model S wasn't so expensive I'd be tempted. Although I'm completely happy with my current car, I do foresee a Tesla or similar at some point down the road, but it would still have to be somewhat geared to performance vs pure economy (one reason I still like my V6 over an I4 as well).

That said, it does bum me that the rise of the electric will also mean the death of the manual transmission (car is a 6 speed)...but I guess so long as I can still ride and shift gears on a bike, I'm ok with it. Now if they make all future electric bikes single gear, then I'll start kicking my feet (and correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Zero have at least a few gears?)

 

[DJM]

Personally, I wouldn't buy a Volt older than MY 2014. There's a few differences between the 12's and 14's. IIRC ERDTT activation temp isn't selectable on the '12 and the batteries are slightly less capacity. There's not a huge difference in asking prices either.

 

[PrivatePilot]

Shouldn't you have the wifey test drive it? Maybe the brake pedal thing will bother her.

Fair argument, but as much as I'm all excited about things, reality is we're really not in the market until next summer unfortunately, and my wife isn't really interested in test driving anything we're not actually in the market to buy anytime soon.

Unless of course something major goes wrong with the 300, that is...then purchase would be moved up.

Myself, being the planner (and hey, the Volt really intrigues me) couldn't pass up an opportunity to try out out.

Thing is., we make our last mortgage payment next June so there will be considerably more room in the budget at that point...hence the plan to wait.

Not a fan of the Volt, but if the Model S wasn't so expensive I'd be tempted.

I love the Tesla, but the price is a major no-go for me, and by the time any of them get into what I'd ever pay for a used car (IE, sub $20K) they'll be old and worn out. Even 2013's are still fetching between $70,000-$80,000. At that price my logic behind buying an EV (to save money) goes right out the door, and that's a big part of the equation for me.

The lack of a range extender is also another negative for us. My wife would most certainly NOT be cool with having to plan long trips around charging stations.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a Volt older than MY 2014. There's a few differences between the 12's and 14's. IIRC ERDTT activation temp isn't selectable on the '12 and the batteries are slightly less capacity. There's not a huge difference in asking prices either.

A few differences I noticed today, but I think 13 is the breakpoint, not 14:

2011-2012 - Charge rate on a stage 1 charger (110v, 8amp vs 12amp) is only selectable on the charger, vs in the car on 2013's. On the flipside, the 2013 and up models default back to 8amps after every single drive (and must be toggled back to 12amps before every charge) whereas the 2011-2012 stage 1 chargers will stay defaulted to 12 amps. The automatic flip back to 8 amp charge rate is a HUGE gripe amongst 2013+ owners - tons of complaints online. So, in some ways, the 2011-2012's win.

Premature ERDTT is indeed a gripe in the 2011-2012 and is indeed not selectable to the lower temp, but there's lots of mods out there that are dead simple - wire in a resistor to the related sensor to make the sensor think the outside temp is 10c warmer than it actually is. Wiring said resistor in via a DPST toggle switch inside the car makes it easy to toggle the hack on or off easily. Easy stuff, and if I did buy a 2011/2012 it would be a 45 minute easy install for me.

 

[Brian P]

I was referring to a batteries ability to take a charge in sub-zero temps; the decrease in, to be more accurate.


https://transportevolved.com/2014/1...ric-car-101-charging-takes-longer-30-minutes/

This is only an issue if the temperature of the batteries is not regulated. GM regulates the temperature of the batteries, so does Tesla. The article specifically mentions the Nissan Leaf ... the lack of temperature regulation of the batteries is a known weak point where Nissan cheaped out on that particular car!

The "good" EVs all have thermal management for the batteries. The Nissan Leaf is not a good car ...

Granted, if you start off from stone cold with the car not having been plugged in overnight and drive directly to a quick-charging station, the batteries are not going to be at the proper temperature, but if you've been on the road having started out with a full charge and you then go into a quick-charging station, they will be.