Any GTAM'ers own an electric vehicle?

[Brian P]

Ford Mach e first drives are out: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/for.../2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-first-drive-review/

Seems quite promising!

I've said this before. The way you get this society off oil (which we need to do) isn't to appeal to the environmentalists. It's to build EVs that are better. Build a better car, that happens to be electric, and it's better because it's electric ... people will buy it.

 

[Mad Mike]

I think the economics of electric cars is upside down as long as gasoline is cheap - even more so these days as people are driving so little.

COVID has fundamentally shifted my workplace's view of WFH -- I'll probably work out my career sitting wherever I can find a dependable internet connection. In a normal year my car gets about 24000Km, my total for 2020 will be about 4K. With gasoline at $1/l my total spend on fuel this year is under $300. The premium on an e-car is about $20,000 today, so to offset that premium I'd need to save $300/month in fuel.

 

[Mad Mike]

Ford Mach e first drives are out: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/for.../2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-first-drive-review/

Seems quite promising!

I've said this before. The way you get this society off oil (which we need to do) isn't to appeal to the environmentalists. It's to build EVs that are better. Build a better car, that happens to be electric, and it's better because it's electric ... people will buy it.

I think the issue right now is cost. 10 years ago when the first Chevy VOLT hit the market, a KWH of lithium battery cost car manufacturers $1100. Today that cost has fallen to $150/kwh - for a whopping savings of $15K in raw material cost. One would think manufacturers have also recovered some engineering costs by now, and have seen some cost reductions in electric motors and control systems.

But the cars are not coming down in cost.

If small high volume $20K cars (Civic, Corolla, Jetta etc) were available in an e version for $20K, the market would light up.

 

[SunnY S]

It's to build EVs that are better. Build a better car, that happens to be electric, and it's better because it's electric ... people will buy it.

Problem is, there is only one maker that is doing it "right". Legacy automakers continue to be clueless.

The Bolt? Leaf? sales charts are on fire.....

 

[SunnY S]

Personally....I’m paying 70k for a car I want that thing perfect.

I have a 2020 vehicle which cost me almost 50k, and only 4k on the clock, and its already causing me hassles and the dealer said it will be months for parts as the vehicle is so new.

I know someone with a $60k 2020 Lexus and with 1000k or so it already has an oil leak on the transfer case.


Quality drop is across the board in my opinion, i don't think its just tesla

 

[SunnY S]

Ford Mach e first drives are out: Detroit Strikes Back! 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E First Drive Review

Oh look, a giant i-Pad in the center console that controls everything providing a minimalist design.... where have I seen that before??

 

[Mad Mike]

Problem is, there is only one maker that is doing it "right". Legacy automakers continue to be clueless.

The Bolt? Leaf? sales charts are on fire.....

I watch the Norway market as it’s a bit of a viewport into the future. VW is blowing Tesla out of the water. At the beginning of the year Tesla was outselling Vw 3:1. Vw introduced the lower cost ID3, they are not selling 80% more e-cars than Tesla in Norway.

it proves that price matters, growth is in the low cost segment is booming.

 

[mimico_polak]

I watch the Norway market as it’s a bit of a viewport into the future. VW is blowing Tesla out of the water. At the beginning of the year Tesla was outselling Vw 3:1. Vw introduced the lower cost ID3, they are not selling 80% more e-cars than Tesla in Norway.

it proves that price matters, growth is in the low cost segment is booming.

Put in a proper EV in the 20-30k range and watch Tesla sales plummet. I’m still dumbfounded how my friend could afford that car but all the reasons provided still wouldn’t let me sleep at night at $800/month obligation.

my current WRX will most likely be the last ICE car I have. I’m hoping the market continues to grow and I’ll have more options when it’s time to replace.

 

[Evoex]

I have a 2020 vehicle which cost me almost 50k, and only 4k on the clock, and its already causing me hassles and the dealer said it will be months for parts as the vehicle is so new.

I know someone with a $60k 2020 Lexus and with 1000k or so it already has an oil leak on the transfer case.


Quality drop is across the board in my opinion, i don't think its just tesla

You bought a 2020 that wasn't a Tesla?

What brand? There is certainly a global supply chain debacle, I have containers sitting at the port for 20 days. But this is a blip for most legacy products I can think of.

How's the paint quality and panel gap on that 100k Lexus?

 

[mimico_polak]

Oh look, a giant i-Pad in the center console that controls everything providing a minimalist design.... where have I seen that before??

Have seen the Y interior and much prefer the Mustangs personally. I’m all for minimalistic interiors but I don’t even have a word to think of how boring the interior of the Tesla is.

 

[mimico_polak]

I have a 2020 vehicle which cost me almost 50k, and only 4k on the clock, and its already causing me hassles and the dealer said it will be months for parts as the vehicle is so new.

I know someone with a $60k 2020 Lexus and with 1000k or so it already has an oil leak on the transfer case.


Quality drop is across the board in my opinion, i don't think its just tesla

Please tell me it’s a Honda or Tesla......please please please!

 

[LBV]

I've said this before. The way you get this society off oil (which we need to do) isn't to appeal to the environmentalists. It's to build EVs that are better. Build a better car, that happens to be electric, and it's better because it's electric ... people will buy it.

I figured it out in 2014 but I get that most people are afraid of change.

 

[crankcall]

I was pretty interested in the 2021 F-150 hybrid engine option. The upgrade is about 6-7yrs worth of gasoline for me, and the electric drive really only works at low speed? So highway is on the dinosaur engine, and the extra 500Lbs? of batteries and edrive and stuff probably negates the gain in real driving situations.
Its not better, yet.

 

[mimico_polak]

I was pretty interested in the 2021 F-150 hybrid engine option. The upgrade is about 6-7yrs worth of gasoline for me, and the electric drive really only works at low speed? So highway is on the dinosaur engine, and the extra 500Lbs? of batteries and edrive and stuff probably negates the gain in real driving situations.
Its not better, yet.

500lbs of extra dead weight has to really hit the gas mileage. But you're right, if I'm buying a used Civic it's like 15-18k, if I'm buying a used Volt it's like 20-28k depending on the car / dealership. So right off the bat I need to drive a lot to make up the difference.

My Gen1 Volt I bought for 18k, a similar spec Civic was 13k. But I drove a lot, and didn't pay gas for 2 years (500L maybe for trips to cottage) as we had free charging at work (not anymore at that office). So I was happy with it. But I do miss that car. Should've kept it.

 

[Mad Mike]

500lbs of extra dead weight has to really hit the gas mileage. But you're right, if I'm buying a used Civic it's like 15-18k, if I'm buying a used Volt it's like 20-28k depending on the car / dealership. So right off the bat I need to drive a lot to make up the difference.

My Gen1 Volt I bought for 18k, a similar spec Civic was 13k. But I drove a lot, and didn't pay gas for 2 years (500L maybe for trips to cottage) as we had free charging at work (not anymore at that office). So I was happy with it. But I do miss that car. Should've kept it.

To make up the difference between $13k civic and $18k volt you would need to save $5k in fuel over the life of the car. At today’s prices that would mean driving about 150,000 km before the electric car becomes more economical.

If you compare a comparably equipped Elantra at $20k to an Ionic at $42k, there is no practical way to save money over the life of the vehicle if gas is below 1.25/l.

 

[mimico_polak]

To make up the difference between $13k civic and $18k volt you would need to save $5k in fuel over the life of the car. At today’s prices that would mean driving about 150,000 km before the electric car becomes more economical.

If you compare a comparably equipped Elantra at $20k to an Ionic at $42k, there is no practical way to save money over the life of the vehicle if gas is below 1.25/l.

Yup. The math just doesn’t work, until you factor in the ‘feel good’ aspect to it for helping the environment.....but....apparently buying a new EV is so much worse for the environment than an ICE....

 

[SunnY S]

I was pretty interested in the 2021 F-150 hybrid engine option. The upgrade is about 6-7yrs worth of gasoline for me, and the electric drive really only works at low speed? So highway is on the dinosaur engine, and the extra 500Lbs? of batteries and edrive and stuff probably negates the gain in real driving situations.
Its not better, yet.

Ford's e- effort so far is disappointingly bad, but I don't blame them fully, its hard to crack into the the Electric market.

Their Ford Transit E van is a joke!

I believe the Mach should be an improvement as its a clean sheet design which is the way ANY proper electric car should be designed instead of frankensteining battery power trains on existing designs.

But will wait till I read a few reviews to get a better idea on the Mach. I believe Car and Driver offers the best unbiased, accurate, informed, detailed reviews around, I'd like to see their take on it. Should be out soon.

In the meantime, I still think Hydrogen will be a great alternative, I predict by 2030 it will come into major play..

2021 Toyota Mirai Makes a Stylish Play for a Hydrogen Future

Toyota's redesigned Mirai hydrogen fuel-cell sedan fixes the ugly design of its predecessor and ups the range to 400 miles—but is only available in California.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[GreyGhost]

Ford's e- effort so far is disappointingly bad, but I don't blame them fully, its hard to crack into the the Electric market.

Their Ford Transit E van is a joke!

I believe the Mach should be an improvement as its a clean sheet design which is the way ANY proper electric car should be designed instead of frankensteining battery power trains on existing designs.

But will wait till I read a few reviews to get a better idea on the Mach. I believe Car and Driver offers the best unbiased, accurate, informed, detailed reviews around, I'd like to see their take on it. Should be out soon.

In the meantime, I still think Hydrogen will be a great alternative, I predict by 2030 it will come into major play..

2021 Toyota Mirai Makes a Stylish Play for a Hydrogen Future

Toyota's redesigned Mirai hydrogen fuel-cell sedan fixes the ugly design of its predecessor and ups the range to 400 miles—but is only available in California.

www.caranddriver.com

Agree except for the hydrogen. I still believe it is dead in the water. The infrastructure costs to support it are crushing. The only chance it has is california and/or JT dumping an unfathomable amount of public money into a distribution network that will quickly be abandoned.

 

[Brian P]

Hydrogen has no future in the mass market. The next generation of lithium batteries is probably the lithium-metal battery:

Company claims solid-state lithium-metal battery breakthrough

It would offer much higher energy density and much faster charging.

arstechnica.com

Building the Best Solid State Battery | QuantumScape

QuantumScape is on a mission to transform energy storage with revolutionary solid state battery technology that will charge faster, go farther and last longer.

www.quantumscape.com

VW is involved in this.

If they can do 400 Wh/kg (lower end of their claimed range) a 100 kg battery would have 40 kWh (motorcycles, light cars) and a 100 kWh battery would weigh just 250 kg (long-range EVs today - and it is likely going forward that as charging stations become more prevalent, the demand for extremely large battery capacities will diminish in that application). That's in the same ballpark as the engine, transmission, and fuel tank of a comparable combustion-engine vehicle. Tesla was claiming consumption of 2 kWh per mile with their Semi - 600 miles (1000 km) would require 1200 kWh - that battery pack would weigh 3000 kg - same ballpark as the engine, transmission, and fuel tank of a tractor-trailer today.

Charging stations don't care what kind of battery is in the vehicle that's plugged into them. The on-board charging electronics deal with that.

 

[800over]

Yup. The math just doesn’t work, until you factor in the ‘feel good’ aspect to it for helping the environment.....but....apparently buying a new EV is so much worse for the environment than an ICE....

The math doesn't work....but there is plenty of available studies showing EV lifetime ownership is NOT worse for the environment. It's like saying Mcdonalds calls their company that supplies their beef 100% Beef to hide the fact that it isn't 100% beef. It is just an old wives tale. Having said that....it doesn't make financial sense.

Effects of battery manufacturing on electric vehicle life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions - International Council on Clean Transportation

Reviews recent research regarding greenhouse gas emissions from the manufacturing of lithium-ion batteries for electric vehicles. We analyze this research in the overall context of life-cycle emissions of electric cars as compared to conventional internal combustion vehicles in Europe. Finally...

theicct.org