Its not a someone, it's a board of a select few and the decisions don't generally work in favour of investors. Look at the number of CEOs of under performing companies that still get bonuses and the like. Is that how reward in a capitalist society should work?
Your thoughts on minimum wage
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Its not a someone, it's a board of a select few and the decisions don't generally work in favour of investors. Look at the number of CEOs of under performing companies that still get bonuses and the like. Is that how reward in a capitalist society should work?
A couple dollars an hour at least, I have heard 1 for 1 before for some jobs (employer pays 30, employee gets 15). For one I know of, employer pays $100/hr, employee gets $75. If the temp agency is good, that is some serious coin for matching up labour and jobs.
Paul, can you get back in the "chicks on bikes" thread? All this logic is making my head hurtz
Bitching and clubbing can only explain away so much. Fact is the world has changed. For the most part it seemed that countries did the greater share of their commerce inside their borders or neighbouring countries. There was always a factory job for the shlub to assemble vacuum cleaners for the hausfraus of the same country to use. And if you wanted to pull yourself up by the bootstraps you could take a trade to build or maintain the factory. Or further you could work as a vacuum cleaner engineer etc. etc. That's gone away. Countries should be self sustaining. It's in the interest of the citizens. Policies that work against that border on treason. What is a society? What's the purpose of borders anymore? We've got the know-how, natural resources, infrastructure, everything right here to provide for ourselves, for everybody to have a decent quality of life. But nooooo, we let unnatural unfriendly forces dictate our world.
EaZ8
Well-known member
i wont get into the finances of the current company i work for but based on previous experiences...
insurance, plus a lot of overhead. your admin and office staff are not billable expenses.
have enough staff and you need a HR department, then health and safety manager as a dedicated role, vacation pay, stat pay and stuff like that also not billable so that is all worked into the hourly bill rates.
min wadge goes up and so does some other expenses but that doesnt mean the bill rate goes up until contract renewal time witch is usually 2-5 yrs depending on the operation...some are month to month.
having good and RELIABLE staff is extremely hard to come by. then make sure they pass a criminal background check (and they pull criminal driving offences now too BTW... so HTA 172 has burned some people ive come across.)then they still have to pass all the testing that you have to pay them for their time before you can actually send them off to work. average cost to get someone in and working is much more than you would think.
depending on all the requirements break even point is somewhere around 600 hrs of work.
some companies pay right away on a weekly basis, some you submit the bill monthly then wait for accounting to go over it then another month later you remind them they have to pay you.
you need a big bank roll to keep a big staff running.
yes and no.
insurance, plus a lot of overhead. your admin and office staff are not billable expenses.
have enough staff and you need a HR department, then health and safety manager as a dedicated role, vacation pay, stat pay and stuff like that also not billable so that is all worked into the hourly bill rates.
min wadge goes up and so does some other expenses but that doesnt mean the bill rate goes up until contract renewal time witch is usually 2-5 yrs depending on the operation...some are month to month.
Yes, and yes.
having good and RELIABLE staff is extremely hard to come by. then make sure they pass a criminal background check (and they pull criminal driving offences now too BTW... so HTA 172 has burned some people ive come across.)then they still have to pass all the testing that you have to pay them for their time before you can actually send them off to work. average cost to get someone in and working is much more than you would think.
depending on all the requirements break even point is somewhere around 600 hrs of work.
some companies pay right away on a weekly basis, some you submit the bill monthly then wait for accounting to go over it then another month later you remind them they have to pay you.
you need a big bank roll to keep a big staff running.
yes and no, depends on the job, also if you use a recruiting agency outside of the staffing agency...bill rate stays the same, profit goes out the window to make it not even worthwhile.
for example (im not in this industry but..) bill rate for a security guard is double their hourly rate on average. so $15 for the guard $15 for the company. a large portion of that goes to their insurance, which for security is absolutely insane, i think it works out to about $7 a hour. also they now require full time guards to have a health benefit package option.
That is not your typical agency or temp job.
If you go to the Hamilton thugs thread / video one can understand the need for the above plus legal rainy day fund.
I always thought the temp agencies consisted of temporary workers in factories working minimum wage jobs with no security and very little (minimum wage) pay...
Then a few years ago I found out my ex working for this type of company as well. She was well educated, travelled, and very smart in her field and was working with the agency for a credit card company here in Toronto. They basically kept her in constant fear that she wasn't able to take a single day vacation in 3 years, was not allowed to be late, was not allowed to take an hour off, and was always in fear of getting fired and replaced with the next temp.
This continued for a few more years, but in the end the manager she was working with saw the talent and bought out her contract from the company and hired her full time. Her pay went up 30% immediately and she was happy since.
It's shocking how badly these companies can treat employees, as they are really nothing more than just numbers who are to be used for the lowest bidder.
Then a few years ago I found out my ex working for this type of company as well. She was well educated, travelled, and very smart in her field and was working with the agency for a credit card company here in Toronto. They basically kept her in constant fear that she wasn't able to take a single day vacation in 3 years, was not allowed to be late, was not allowed to take an hour off, and was always in fear of getting fired and replaced with the next temp.
This continued for a few more years, but in the end the manager she was working with saw the talent and bought out her contract from the company and hired her full time. Her pay went up 30% immediately and she was happy since.
It's shocking how badly these companies can treat employees, as they are really nothing more than just numbers who are to be used for the lowest bidder.
Lots of professions, engineering especially, are using contract/temp agencies.
Asking people to do the same job as the full time person who sits next to you for significantly less money. That's a good way to build resentment. I understand if it's used as an extended probation period because often it takes more than 3 months to truly test someone in those positions, but when that turns into years and years it's stupid.
I was contract in my last job, and when I got my layoff notice I was also told I wouldn't be getting back pay owed to me, so I did not do a single minute of work in my last two weeks.
Treat your temp employees like dirt then get all uppity when they stop caring about their job.... Makes sense.
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Asking people to do the same job as the full time person who sits next to you for significantly less money. That's a good way to build resentment. I understand if it's used as an extended probation period because often it takes more than 3 months to truly test someone in those positions, but when that turns into years and years it's stupid.
I was contract in my last job, and when I got my layoff notice I was also told I wouldn't be getting back pay owed to me, so I did not do a single minute of work in my last two weeks.
Treat your temp employees like dirt then get all uppity when they stop caring about their job.... Makes sense.
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IT is no different. It's been a changing landscape the past decade. Too many 'temp' personnel are working for years.
I worked on contracts of one kind or another for over 20 years (full time and tenured now though). It's not fun. I have friends that were promised permanent positions that never materialised after contract end dates. Rare is the company these days that treats it's workers fairly.
Riceburner
Well-known member
not much different in full time jobs either.....
Red_Liner740
Well-known member
My buddy worked for a temp agency and was contracted out to a company to uncrate and crate industrial machines. They saw his "go get em" attitude and hired him full time. 6 years later he runs the maintenance dept and last time we spoke was bringing in just shy of $80k base salary + sent him to school for robotics.
BrownBrady
Well-known member
I've been on both sides of the fence as an employee and an employer.
As an employer in a tech company, I had to work longer than any of my employees and it wasn't always fun. I had to make sure they received their paychecks (and my own) on time to give them a sense of 'security' (there is no such thing). The payroll is just one of the many line items in the costs of running the business which includes marketing, accounting, insurance, materials, rent, utilities, transportation. etc. While my employees only needed to worry about next month's budget, I worried about this year's budget. This is why I must charge a customer at an increased rate than an employee's rate and praying that I get the work. At the end of a sales cycle, I am hoping that there is enough left over for a profit which goes back to the employees (i.e. as a bonus) or invested back into the business (i.e. upgraded computers). Each customer was a "boss" to me so I had many bosses to report to.
As an employee, I only had 1 boss to worry about, and all I had to do was perform the tasks I promised to carry out and receive money in return. All the other risks that my employer has taken on is transparent to me and I don't have to worry about it (risks of not meeting payroll, cost overruns, getting sued, stress, etc.). I work during business hours and I get to go home to a hot dinner. But I work with a mercenary mentality and it's all business, never personal. I treat my boss as a customer. At the first sign of insecurity, I'm looking at the next potential employer.
I can see why people would rather work for someone than work for themselves. It's so much easier to become an employee. It opened my eyes to both sides to see that each have their pros and cons. But now I'm not too quick to judge my employer for turning up a profit. It's none of my business. Anyway, that was my soapbox haha.
As an employer in a tech company, I had to work longer than any of my employees and it wasn't always fun. I had to make sure they received their paychecks (and my own) on time to give them a sense of 'security' (there is no such thing). The payroll is just one of the many line items in the costs of running the business which includes marketing, accounting, insurance, materials, rent, utilities, transportation. etc. While my employees only needed to worry about next month's budget, I worried about this year's budget. This is why I must charge a customer at an increased rate than an employee's rate and praying that I get the work. At the end of a sales cycle, I am hoping that there is enough left over for a profit which goes back to the employees (i.e. as a bonus) or invested back into the business (i.e. upgraded computers). Each customer was a "boss" to me so I had many bosses to report to.
As an employee, I only had 1 boss to worry about, and all I had to do was perform the tasks I promised to carry out and receive money in return. All the other risks that my employer has taken on is transparent to me and I don't have to worry about it (risks of not meeting payroll, cost overruns, getting sued, stress, etc.). I work during business hours and I get to go home to a hot dinner. But I work with a mercenary mentality and it's all business, never personal. I treat my boss as a customer. At the first sign of insecurity, I'm looking at the next potential employer.
I can see why people would rather work for someone than work for themselves. It's so much easier to become an employee. It opened my eyes to both sides to see that each have their pros and cons. But now I'm not too quick to judge my employer for turning up a profit. It's none of my business. Anyway, that was my soapbox haha.
Good points BrownBrady. As a tradesman I've worked along side others and it's been discussed many times "we should start our own business". Not gonna happen for the reasons you outlined. Of course we all know people who absolutely will not work for others come hell or high water. Nobody said starting and running a business is easy (gov. will make sure of that) but for certain personality types it's easier and the only option. That can lead to seeing their employees as dirt.
In some companies it won't matter how had you "go get em". You're still just a number and you're just as expendable as the person next to you.
I was laid off along with 95 other people. Some full time, some contract, some in idle departments, some in departments working overtime that actually had job postings on monster to bring in another head. Yup. Makes sense. I don't know a single person there that loves their job and they are a big employer. Everyone full time says they put up with the BS for the pay. And the contractors are just hoping for full time.
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suzuki2000
Well-known member
I deal with many "consultant contracts" rates that consultant organizations pull in vs what we know they pay there employees often has a great divide. But if a contractor is paying $90/hr, they also incur lets say another $30/hr in benefits/EI/CPP/insurance ... plus the cost of developing business carrying overhead..., support workers..
Going freelance is an option and can be lucrative, but the work isn't always continuous and you absorb some risk that you previously may not have been exposed to and you often forego a safety net if it all goes sideways.
People have to weight the options and go with what is best for them
