yamaha silent recall on FZ09 leads to paralyzed rider - fly by wire acceleration

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boyoboy said:
When your throttle starts changing position from closed to 1/4 throttle without any input from the rider.
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Haha. Comprehension fail.

Blackfin said:
The tuning of the throttle response map is indeed a control issue. The question is whether it was dangerous in its 2014 guise. I don't think that case has been made yet.
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The throttle was touchy/snatchy. Thousands of these bikes were sold and there has been no pattern or evidence of a big problem.
 
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Blackfin said:
Unless I'm mistaken, that's not the issue with FZ-09 throttles though. It's more than a small throttle input is met with a somewhat exaggerated throttle plate opening; these aren't the same thing.

If the plaintiff had been approaching an intersection with the throttle closed, in gear and the throttle plates suddenly went to 1/4-open even though the wrist-control was still closed, that's definitely an unintended acceleration & a throttle malfunction. But that's not what Ive heard about early FZ-09 throttles; instead it's just been that they're "overeager".

He was doing a "slow turn" in a parking lot. I wonder if he was actually practicing wheelies on his hooligan-bike and lost it...
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yamaha probally would like to have a lawyer like you. Fly by wire means nobody knows what throttle inputs were actually happening - relying on a computer to control this is inherently dangerous in itself. computers fail. does anyone remember the audi fiasco where cars started accelerating out of control - this eventually was attributed to many crashes and several deaths before audi fixed the problem. nobody knows exactly how this bike reacted on that day.
 
kwtoxman said:
Haha. Comprehension fail.


The throttle was touchy/snatchy. Thousands of these bikes were sold and there has been no pattern or evidence of a big problem.
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then what is the control problem that yamaha issued in their recall fix? it is a control issue of acceleration. any control issue is a large issue, and a greater problem at lower speeds. if there was no evidence of a problem then why did yamaha have a recall and fix for dealers?
 
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boyoboy said:
yamaha probally would like to have a lawyer like you. Fly by wire means nobody knows what throttle inputs were actually happening - relying on a computer to control this is inherently dangerous in itself. computers fail.
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DBW systems are everywhere. If you drive a car that was built after about 2000 or so it very likely has a DBW throttle. Engineers build in redundancies to ensure that no single fault can cause a hazardous situation and also that the chances of a multiple-fault in the same system are vanishingly small. They're safe.

does anyone remember the audi fiasco where cars started accelerating out of control - this eventually was attributed to many crashes and several deaths before audi fixed the problem. nobody knows exactly how this bike reacted on that day.
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AFAIK, there was nothing technical to the claims of Audi unintended accelerations. A 60 Minutes episode on the topic was exposed as having using a compressed air canister and linkage to produce "unintended acceleration" though they did not disclose this. And BTW, those cars, their "5000" models of the 1980s, were not DBW.

The closest I can think of in modern times would be the Toyota issue of a few years back where poor firmware design led to memory & system performance issues. However, that's not what is happening with Yamaha's FZ-09.
 
boyoboy said:
yamaha probally would like to have a lawyer like you. Fly by wire means nobody knows what throttle inputs were actually happening - relying on a computer to control this is inherently dangerous in itself. computers fail. does anyone remember the audi fiasco where cars started accelerating out of control - this eventually was attributed to many crashes and several deaths before audi fixed the problem. nobody knows exactly how this bike reacted on that day.
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The throttle response IS predictable and one can know what was happening easily. It is based on fixed software code of input versus output. Not some sort of magical box that guesses and changes. The bike in question can easily be tested as well since it sounds like it is around and the accident was basic.

Drive by wire has been out for years and in a huge amount of vehicles. Where's all the dangerous events?

boyoboy said:
then what is the control problem that yamaha issued in their recall fix? timing?
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As for the control problem. It's simple. Misapplication by the rider.

Just the same as it was with your Audi reference. You don't even know the history of the Audi experience. Seriously. Look it up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration

Yamaha has simply released a smoother throttle map. Software revisions for improved performance are common place in vehicles. Very very common.


What is more likely.....
1. That a bike that has sold thousands has a major defect causing out-of-control riding, which is supposedly hidden and a huge problem, even though this thread only reports one case of it.
Or
2. Rider error.

I go with Occam's razor. A basic scientific precept. The simplest solution is usually the right one.
 
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boyoboy said:
When your throttle starts changing position from closed to 1/4 throttle without any input from the rider, - and yamaha knew that from complaints, acknowledged it, and issued a fix, they are obligated to have fixed this on all bikes. When yamaha TOLD DEALERS NOT TO TELL FZ09 owners - they opened the door to liability

What I do not understand, other than from a dollars perspective, is why didn't they fix all the bikes when they knew of the problem - uncontrolled acceleration is no small issue ..

Yamaha also had problems with the r3, but different, and issued notices to r3 owners not to ride their bikes until fixed. but with the FZ09 not only didn't they warn owners - they TOLD DEALERS, IN WRITING, not tell the owners about it. Not right.
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That's not what the service bulletin described. It said the problem could happen anywhere between closed and 1/4 throttle. Kinda like it could happen anywhere between 18-37 mph doesn't mean it would instantly shoot from 18 to 37 mph!
 
boyoboy said:
then what is the control problem that yamaha issued in their recall fix? it is a control issue of acceleration. any control issue is a large issue, and a greater problem at lower speeds. if there was no evidence of a problem then why did yamaha have a recall and fix for dealers?
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Because it was a complaint that pertained to comfort rather than safety (in Yamaha's eyes, at least).
 
comfort issue? or do you mean a drivability issue? hidden from owners by telling dealers in writing, not to tell customers there was a recall fix available.
 
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boyoboy said:
comfort issue? or do you mean a drivability issue? hidden from owners by telling dealers in writing, not to tell customers there was a recall fix available.
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Keep it simple... it was not a safety issue. And your reading comprehension skills need work. Yamaha never told dealers to withhold or hide information from customers. Read the article again.
 
Drive by wire has been out for years and in a huge amount of vehicles. Where's all the dangerous events?
As for the control problem. It's simple. Misapplication by the rider. from twtox post

and from twtox posted link:
Toyota was also forced to pay a total of $66.2 million in fines to the Department of Transportation for failing to handle recalls properly and $25.5 million to Toyota shareholders whose stock lost value due to recalls. Nearly 400 wrongful-death and personal injury cases were also privately settled by Toyota as a result of unintended acceleration.

as for audi, 700 accidents and more than a few deaths reported due to unintended acceleration.. ?

yamaha knew of the drivability issue, released a recall, and told dealers in writing NOT TO TELL CUSTOMERS THERE WAS A FIX.
I note with interest from your link that toyota recieved $66.2 million for failing to handle recalls properly.
 
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kwtoxman said:
I go with Occam's razor. A basic scientific precept. The simplest solution is usually the right one.
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It's also the most elegant. Is this bolding feature the bomb or what?
 
boyoboy said:
comfort issue? or do you mean a drivability issue? hidden from owners by telling dealers in writing, not to tell customers there was a recall fix available.
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The bikes were perfectly driveable and predictable. They're predictably harsh getting on the throttle at low speeds, in the sense that they cause an uncomfortable buck like there's slack in the drivetrain. Nothing that could cause a bike to go out of control or experience unintended acceleration.

There's no problem to fix if owners aren't reporting anything. If some riders are happy with the same issue that others find too harsh to bear, who is Yamaha to tell everyone they should have the bike fixed?
 
You're a dummy. No, you're a dummy. No, no you're the dummy. I'm the dummy? Comprehension fail, you're dumb. DBW? No, RBW. Pull my wire. We need a link stat. Gotcha.
 
Remember, we are reading only one side of the story here.
All of the allegations made by the rider who suffered the injures have yet to be proven.
I find it difficult to believe some of the allegations.
A company with the experience of Yamaha not issuing a recall would know (or should know) the result.
Multi-million dollar civil court awards which would dwarf the size of any cost of fixing the problem.
But then again people do stupid things, why not companies?
 
Lots of fuel injected bikes have low speed fueling issues or quirks. Yes the fz09 is one of them and Yamaha did offer a fix.

I think you might be confusing a recall and a technical service bulletin. A tsb is more a long the lines of a customer complains of a fault and the manufacturer has provided a "fix" to service departments for those faults which is likely the situation here.
 
IMO, everyone is getting rather off-topic on the root of the article. All this talk over the technicalities of the throttle will likely have squat to do with the outcome of the case.

The suit filed is over the point of proving Yamaha KNEW of A PROBLEM (that could cause a rider injury) and FAILED to notify owners/riders/people - RE: Silent Recall. It's that simple. Had Mr. Cruz KNOWN about the recall/problem he may have not riden that bike that day and become a paraplegic.
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