What is up with people?

[Jampy00]

Let’s break down your points:

“I owned a business and paid almost no real tax”
- Then it wasn’t a profitable company. My corporate tax at the end of our fiscal year is a decent chunk, and that’s after our overpriced accountants have had their way with the numbers. They keep everything above board just in case there is ever an audit, and I realize this is costing me more than getting creative with the books, but I’d rather play by the rules than run the risk of having the cra come down on me.
“Close it after 3 years and start another one”
- Why? Why would I work so hard to create a solid customer base, promote a business, to just shutter it and open something else? People/businesses that do that come across as very sketchy to me. We have people we wholesale to that do that and those are the people that don’t get terms (pay up front) and don’t get preferred pricing either. They are also the ones, generally, who are more of a pain is the ass.
“Payroll tax is not a tax on you it’s a tax on your employees”
- You should know (you know, seeing as how you’ve run a business before….) that there are employee deductions and employer matched deductions. The fact that you lack this very basic payroll knowledge throws a lot of doubt in you ever running a business with employees.
“Your choice to have a business account with one of the Canadian banks…”
- Laughable at best. I’m not trusting hundreds of thousands of dollars to some no-name entity to protect me if something goes sideways. We are in a small town and the bank manager will call me personally if something looks fishy. They have saved me a lot of headaches. The fees are hefty, but it’s worth it. Just because something is expensive doesn’t mean it’s a waste of money.
“Unhappy with WSIB? Perhaps you’d like to get rid of it….”
- Never said I was unhappy. I was simply listing an expense. Again, just because it’s an expense doesn’t mean it’s not worth it.
“Commercial insurance is not a tax”
- I’m aware of this. But this is an expense which is part of running a business and falls under my point of ‘it’s expensive to run a business’ and ‘business owners don’t just sit back collecting piles of money’

Is it expensive to run a profitable company? It sure is. And there are a lot of expenses that most employees are clueless about.
Do I sit back and take in piles of money? HA! Not even close! Sure, I live comfortably, but I’m not retiring any time soon and I still play the lottery every once in a while.

So to summarize, based on your responses, I don’t think you have the first clue about running a profitable business and I doubt you’ve ever owned a business aside from maybe something run out of your house that was a “business” for tax purposes only.

Now, I’ve spent enough time on this. Time to go into the office and get caught up on paperwork while my employees enjoy their weekend and spending time with their families.

Knowing my financials. I would say for every dollar we make we spend between 50 - 70 cents.
While we don't openly post these on the walls, every employee is allowed to discuss them as it pertains to them.

While I get paid more than any other employee within the company.
I pay close to 50% tax on my income.
Hold the most responsibility and ultimately responsible for any mistakes made.
I don't receive bonuses, extra days off or any other employee perk.
I still sweep the floors, work weekends, pick and pack orders, answer the phones etc.
I lead by example. I disagree with the do as I say, not as I do, attitude.

My employees know I earn my keep and I know they earn theirs. If anyone assumes otherwise it is a delusion we soon correct.

 

[nobbie48]

LOL. I've owned a business and I paid almost no real tax. You just close it after three years and start another. Your payroll tax is not a tax on you, it's a tax on your workers. Your choice to have a business account with one of the Canadian banks (the ultimate rip-off artists) is a choice, you can go elsewhere. Unhappy about WSIB? Perhaps you'd like to get rid of it and let the courts make you pay when your workers get injured? WSIB is a scam to protect companies from legal liability, it pays no better than UI. Commercial insurance is not a tax, it's a cost.

All this crying by fast food restaurant owners who won't do the work themselves, but hire exploited foreign workers at less than minimum wage with no benefits and whine about not having enough people to do the job. Their 'businesses' do nothing for the economy. Why is it the taxpayer's job to make sure you have enough low wage workers? If your business is worth a damn it would support itself.

Research: When a Higher Minimum Wage Leads to Lower Compensation

While proponents of increasing the minimum wage have grown increasingly vocal in the U.S., new research suggests that raising the minimum wage can actually have a significant negative impact on the total compensation of hourly workers. Researchers analyzed a detailed dataset of wage and...

hbr.org

It's a bit of a read but basically higher minimum wages can result in more part time workers that will never get the benefits that full time workers get. The loopholes in other regulations allow for the shifting of other forms of compensation.

Just a little wake up call here. Fast food isn't cheap food. For about the same price as a mega chain burger combo I can get a really tasty meal at an ethnic independent restaurant. @mimico_polak steered me to a Polish place on the Lakeshore where they give you enough food to feed me and my wife for two days for the price of McWhatever combos. If a 10% price increase meant the workers got a decent wage it wouldn't affect my burger purchases.

We need to start the fixing of this mess from the bottom up. Close the loopholes and pay decent wages. Then we can lower taxes that are presently needed to subsidize housing and stock food banks.

It won't be easy. Investors want returns and they don't care where the ROI's come from.

 

[Hack]

I seen many debates on the actual costs of minimum wage.

 

[DownUnder]

Research: When a Higher Minimum Wage Leads to Lower Compensation

While proponents of increasing the minimum wage have grown increasingly vocal in the U.S., new research suggests that raising the minimum wage can actually have a significant negative impact on the total compensation of hourly workers. Researchers analyzed a detailed dataset of wage and...

hbr.org

It's a bit of a read but basically higher minimum wages can result in more part time workers that will never get the benefits that full time workers get. The loopholes in other regulations allow for the shifting of other forms of compensation.

Just a little wake up call here. Fast food isn't cheap food. For about the same price as a mega chain burger combo I can get a really tasty meal at an ethnic independent restaurant. @mimico_polak steered me to a Polish place on the Lakeshore where they give you enough food to feed me and my wife for two days for the price of McWhatever combos. If a 10% price increase meant the workers got a decent wage it wouldn't affect my burger purchases.

We need to start the fixing of this mess from the bottom up. Close the loopholes and pay decent wages. Then we can lower taxes that are presently needed to subsidize housing and stock food banks.

It won't be easy. Investors want returns and they don't care where the ROI's come from.

I feel the australian system has flaws but is one of the best in the world. There is a national minimum wage (currently $19.84), there are also minimum wages for certain jobs that pay more then the national minimum depending on type of work etc (eg. Accountant minimum is $26.66). Part time employees are entitled to most of the same benefits as full time employees.

There is a pay calculator on the fair work ombudsman page what's interesting to go through.

Welcome to the Fair Work Ombudsman website

Since I used accountant as an example..

 

[GreyGhost]

I feel the australian system has flaws but is one of the best in the world. There is a national minimum wage (currently $19.84), there are also minimum wages for certain jobs that pay more then the national minimum depending on type of work etc (eg. Accountant minimum is $26.66). Part time employees are entitled to most of the same benefits as full time employees.

There is a pay calculator on the fair work ombudsman page what's interesting to go through.

Welcome to the Fair Work Ombudsman website

Since I used accountant as an example..
View attachment 49419

Oz style minimum wage would immediately bankrupt tim hortons. TH survives on selling swill daily for $2 a cup. Push the price of coffee to starbucks prices and they lose most of their customers overnight. Maybe them bailing isnt a bad thing (or they may pivot but they seem incapable of doing that based on previous attempts).

I would be happy if someone could make a decent flat white. Been chasing one since a visit to oz and nothing comes close.

 

[DownUnder]

Oz style minimum wage would immediately bankrupt tim hortons. TH survives on selling swill daily for $2 a cup. Push the price of coffee to starbucks prices and they lose most of their customers overnight. Maybe them bailing isnt a bad thing (or they may pivot but they seem incapable of doing that based on previous attempts).

I would be happy if someone could make a decent flat white. Been chasing one since a visit to oz and nothing comes close.

That's the issue in canada and especially in America... there are people working 40+ hrs a week that have trouble paying rent, food, school etc etc. If the business can't pay a livable wage to their employees without going bankrupt they weren't a very viable business to begin with.

The fast food chains don't seem to have an issue making money in Australia even with the min wage being where it is.

And I hear you on the crap coffee in canada

 

[Katatonic]

Knowing my financials. I would say for every dollar we make we spend between 50 - 70 cents.
While we don't openly post these on the walls, every employee is allowed to discuss them as it pertains to them.

While I get paid more than any other employee within the company.
I pay close to 50% tax on my income.
Hold the most responsibility and ultimately responsible for any mistakes made.
I don't receive bonuses, extra days off or any other employee perk.
I still sweep the floors, work weekends, pick and pack orders, answer the phones etc.
I lead by example. I disagree with the do as I say, not as I do, attitude.

My employees know I earn my keep and I know they earn theirs. If anyone assumes otherwise it is a delusion we soon correct.

You’ve got some good margins then….lol
We have tight margins so on average we make about 30-35 pts on what we sell. Then out of that comes wages, rent, utilities….etc.
I’m closer to the bottom of the pay scale when it comes to paycheques, and I’m absolutely on the bottom if I work out my hourly rate vs my employees and I don’t take a bonus but we certainly pay them out to everyone else.
On the flip side, I have a few perks that are not extended to the employees like a company vehicle and extended business trips….when we could travel.

 

[Priller]

I'm in construction, mostly concrete, and we've seen labour wages increase by almost 100% over the past 10 years. $18/hr was standard for someone with no experience then, now we're in excess of $30/hr, and hitting over $40 on heavy civil work in the GTA. We've had workers with one year in get poached by offering $41/hr steady. This is for unticketed work, though there are moves by LIUNA to create some sort of journeyman process.

There's a few reasons for this, but the simple reason is there are more jobs than workers. Add that it's hard work, and the pool gets surprisingly small. Employee loyalty is minimal, mostly because the last time anyone was worried about finding a job in construction was the early '90s, almost 30 years ago and before a lot of our guys were born, let alone during their career. They've never been worried about losing a job, nor have they ever had to be grateful if an employer went above and beyond on keeping them working when times were slow. Most will leave if someone offers them $0.50 more per hour, and see employers as broadly interchangeable. We're unionised, so that adds to the sameness (and to be clear, the union is not part of the problem, wages are similar, union or not).

As someone on salary who hasn't seen the same increases as the labour side, I sometimes wish we worked in design or advertising, as it seems those are fields which appeal a lot more to young people than chipping concrete or drilling holes...

 

[nobbie48]

"Work" is finding a common ground between expectations and reality for both the employer and the employee. If one is lucky enough to find that balance they are very fortunate.

It has been my experience that communication is key, even better knowing when it needs to be verbal and when it needs to be in writing. People often forget what they openly and freely agree to. I hold people to the same level of accountability that I expect to be held to.

I assume your company is mostly a warehousing operation with maybe a bit of assembly work. You buy stuff and sell it at a profit. You need workers.

Hypothetically speaking what is a fair price for the worker's product, their labour.

They can walk, read and speak English, lift reasonably heavy boxes and drive a fork lift truck. They can turn on a computer and fill in the blanks, push "Print"

They need from you a place to live, food to eat, clothing

What is a fair price for their labour?

Should you be responsible for their cost of housing going up?

Are they due a raise if they produce a child?

Are you responsible for ego attitudes? ie Their kid is being shunned at school because they don't wear the right Nikes shoes.

Pre WWII you would expect to hire a man and pay him enough to house and feed him, his wife and two children. Now it would be expected that his wife would work and although making less than him would contribute 40% of the family income. Does that mean the average wage has come down relatively because more family members are working and 60% of the prewar rate is the new base?

It was a lot easier to answer the above questions when Canada had protectionism and white male rules weren't challenged.

What would happen to XYZ Widget if their wages went from $20 an hour to $30 an hour?

Would that prompt technical changes? Automation?

 

[Jampy00]

I assume your company is mostly a warehousing operation with maybe a bit of assembly work. You buy stuff and sell it at a profit. You need workers.

Hypothetically speaking what is a fair price for the worker's product, their labour.

They can walk, read and speak English, lift reasonably heavy boxes and drive a fork lift truck. They can turn on a computer and fill in the blanks, push "Print"

They need from you a place to live, food to eat, clothing

What is a fair price for their labour?

Should you be responsible for their cost of housing going up?

Are they due a raise if they produce a child?

Are you responsible for ego attitudes? ie Their kid is being shunned at school because they don't wear the right Nikes shoes.

Pre WWII you would expect to hire a man and pay him enough to house and feed him, his wife and two children. Now it would be expected that his wife would work and although making less than him would contribute 40% of the family income. Does that mean the average wage has come down relatively because more family members are working and 60% of the prewar rate is the new base?

It was a lot easier to answer the above questions when Canada had protectionism and white male rules weren't challenged.

What would happen to XYZ Widget if their wages went from $20 an hour to $30 an hour?

Would that prompt technical changes? Automation?

You've made a lot of assumptions.

My original post was simply in regards to an issue that two recently hired part-time employees basically disappeared after a few days of work.
(on separate occasions)

 

[nobbie48]

You've made a lot of assumptions.

My original post was simply in regards to an issue that two recently hired part-time employees basically disappeared after a few days of work.
(on separate occasions)

My main point was the relative stability of the work process a couple of generations ago.

I asked a lot of questions I couldn't personally answer.

The old joke: If you loan someone $20 and never see them again it was probably worth it. It's a little different with business and the second man is needed but does a no-show without warning.

Consideration isn't what it used to be. A one minute phone call to at least mitigate some damage. Karma will eventually get them.

 

[Dirty Frank]

Knowing my financials. I would say for every dollar we make we spend between 50 - 70 cents.
While we don't openly post these on the walls, every employee is allowed to discuss them as it pertains to them.

While I get paid more than any other employee within the company.
I pay close to 50% tax on my income.
Hold the most responsibility and ultimately responsible for any mistakes made.
I don't receive bonuses, extra days off or any other employee perk.
I still sweep the floors, work weekends, pick and pack orders, answer the phones etc.
I lead by example. I disagree with the do as I say, not as I do, attitude.

My employees know I earn my keep and I know they earn theirs. If anyone assumes otherwise it is a delusion we soon correct.

My only takeaway was "its my show and I pay close to 50% of my income in tax" are you talking cumulative or straight up income tax?
If its income tax alone and I mean this sincerely you are doing it very wrong .

 

[油井緋色]

I've seen this problem multiple times.

In school, 10 out of 60 students were competent (3.5 to 4.0 GPA, 4.0 is perfect.)

At work, 3/50 employees had a clue about how to work properly. The other 47 were either:

• Learned too slowly
• Refused to learn (but would nod and lie)
• Deflected responsibility
• Management is part of this

At my new work place, 5/25 software developers are the power houses. The rest would be ****** without those 5.

Just the reality of things. Many workplaces collapse not realizing who the star players are: identify them, put the ego away, and do everything you can to enable them. They are not replaceable if their position involves high amounts of ambiguity and critical thinking.

If the job involves repeatable tasks with an instruction set you can define on paper with ease, look into automation: a computer/robot will be far more reliable than a human.

 

[油井緋色]

Automation tax. If you have replaced a worker with a robot - you pay a tax.

This would simply outsource automation to US, China, or wherever.

Our economy already blows ass because we have a boomer mindset and don't like technology lol like it or not, the robots are coming.

 

[Hack]

I've seen this problem multiple times.
At my new work place, 5/25 software developers are the power houses. The rest would be ****** without those 5.

Pareto principle...

 

[Roadghost]

Research: When a Higher Minimum Wage Leads to Lower Compensation

While proponents of increasing the minimum wage have grown increasingly vocal in the U.S., new research suggests that raising the minimum wage can actually have a significant negative impact on the total compensation of hourly workers. Researchers analyzed a detailed dataset of wage and...

hbr.org

It's a bit of a read but basically higher minimum wages can result in more part time workers that will never get the benefits that full time workers get. The loopholes in other regulations allow for the shifting of other forms of compensation.

I'm not arguing for higher minimum wages. I'm saying stop the policies specifically designed to suppress wages. Do that and you won't need wage legislation. Cut off the supply of cheap labour. The supply demand market will do the rest.

 

[Jampy00]

My only takeaway was "its my show and I pay close to 50% of my income in tax" are you talking cumulative or straight up income tax?
If its income tax alone and I mean this sincerely you are doing it very wrong .

close to 50% of my income in tax not income tax. I apologize it's a generalization. Also tax levels are based on your income, so it has nothing to do with what I am doing. I am an employee not a business owner. What it was meant to represent is that even if you make good money, you rarely get to keep it all..

 

[Katatonic]

close to 50% of my income in tax not income tax. I apologize it's a generalization. Also tax levels are based on your income, so it has nothing to do with what I am doing. I am an employee not a business owner. What it was meant to represent is that even if you make good money, you rarely get to keep it all..

There are perfectly legal ways to minimize your tax bill which I take full advantage of. As a result, my personal tax rate at the end of the year is closer to ~25%.
These options are available to everyone, but most people don’t bother looking into how to lower their rate or hire a good professional to keep more money in their pockets….they just assume that their tax rate is their tax rate.

 

[Wingboy]

I'm not arguing for higher minimum wages. I'm saying stop the policies specifically designed to suppress wages. Do that and you won't need wage legislation. Cut off the supply of cheap labour. The supply demand market will do the rest.

You are not wrong, but we need cheap labor for our farms. Without the migrant workers Farmers would have too pay a lot more in wages to get crops light the fields. Prices would rise even further than they are.

 

[timtune]

You are not wrong, but we need cheap labor for our farms. Without the migrant workers Farmers would have too pay a lot more in wages to get crops light the fields. Prices would rise even further than they are.

Is it time to start paying the "real" price? Can we afford it?