More police training needed before being allowed to carry a gun.

[AGAVE]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/police-sho...-panic-downtown-toronto-subway-134030019.html


This is another example of some seriously piss poor shooting.
Again, lucky those stray bullets didn't tag any innocent people.

One cop shoots a dude to death on a streetcar with 6 shots, but 4 cops shoot one dude on the subway and don't even kill him.
Not very consistent for people we have to trust with deadly weapons.

 

[FiReSTaRT]

They definitely need more of a training budget. While most cops go through their entire careers without having to use their firearm for anything but qualification, proper skills are necessary for all of them to have. They also need proper gun CULTURE indoctrination, like being aware of where the projectile ends up. I've met some cops that are HIGHLY skilled with their guns, but they're enthusiast-sport shooters. For most, it's just the extra 2lbs they have to carry on their hip.

 

[GreyGhost]

Expecting every cop to be able to shoot safely in public with the training provided is ridiculous. Lethal weapons need to be restricted to a select few that have been properly trained (and constantly shoot to keep their skills up).

When Marcinko founded seal team 6, their training budget (for 75 people) exceeded the training budget for the rest of the marine corp (approximately 170,000).

 

[RockerGuy]

They definitely need more of a training budget. While most cops go through their entire careers without having to use their firearm for anything but qualification, proper skills are necessary for all of them to have. They also need proper gun CULTURE indoctrination, like being aware of where the projectile ends up. I've met some cops that are HIGHLY skilled with their guns, but they're enthusiast-sport shooters. For most, it's just the extra 2lbs they have to carry on their hip.

Same applies for most occupation that carries a gun around civilians. I spoke to a former Vault guard & he hasn't even reload the mag or clean the glock he was carrying. I silently facepalmed

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[TwistedKestrel]

Absolutely terrifying.

 

[Paul1000RR]

spray and pray...

 

[EaZ8]

i believe police are trained to shoot at 25 yrds but to pass the annual (i think its annual, it may be every 3 yrs) test it is 7 yrds, full mag on the paper on target..which really, isnt that hard.

another thing is a lot of cops are opting for the shorter barrel plastic guns like glock 22 or 23 and smith and wesson m&p40 just because of the carry weight. really most cops here will never do anything more than unbuckle their holster pouch when approaching a swerving car, ive heard of gun smiths pulling the corners of ketchup packets out of the older sig p226's when they use to carry those.

the problem with the plastic guns is the .40sw they are using is very snappy and hard to shoot, add in the light frames, crappy OEM triggers, the add the duty carry heavy spring kits they have to have in there and it makes shooting follow up shots very difficult for those who dont regularly train with their carry weapon. and the further their target is the wider their shooting group gets.
they need to think about switching to 9mm (maybe even +p) rounds like the mil did.

 

[geoff-9]

i believe police are trained to shoot at 25 yrds but to pass the annual (i think its annual, it may be every 3 yrs) test it is 7 yrds, full mag on the paper on target..which really, isnt that hard.

another thing is a lot of cops are opting for the shorter barrel plastic guns like glock 22 or 23 and smith and wesson m&p40 just because of the carry weight. really most cops here will never do anything more than unbuckle their holster pouch when approaching a swerving car, ive heard of gun smiths pulling the corners of ketchup packets out of the older sig p226's when they use to carry those.

the problem with the plastic guns is the .40sw they are using is very snappy and hard to shoot, add in the light frames, crappy OEM triggers, the add the duty carry heavy spring kits they have to have in there and it makes shooting follow up shots very difficult for those who dont regularly train with their carry weapon. and the further their target is the wider their shooting group gets.
they need to think about switching to 9mm (maybe even +p) rounds like the mil did.

glocks are one of the best guns around. not just the opinion of police but many target shooters, enthusiasts etc etc, its hardly a short barrel at 4 inches. the annual qualification is not at 7 yards, its much harder then that. the 7 yards is for one handed shooting which is just one of the many portions.. the target is around 1.5 feet by 1 foot and the officers have to go back to 50 feet and shoot from behind cover while kneeling then standing then repeat so the gun is not even directly straight to their body, if you miss you fail.
I would like to see if AGAVE has spot on accuracy when a guy with a gun turns it on you and you fire under stress while probably running away.

 

[stevex]

glocks are one of the best guns around. not just the opinion of police but many target shooters, enthusiasts etc etc, its hardly a short barrel at 4 inches. the annual qualification is not at 7 yards, its much harder then that. the 7 yards is for one handed shooting which is just one of the many portions.. the target is around 1.5 feet by 1 foot and the officers have to go back to 50 feet and shoot from behind cover while kneeling then standing then repeat so the gun is not even directly straight to their body, if you miss you fail.
I would like to see if AGAVE has spot on accuracy when a guy with a gun turns it on you and you fire under stress while probably running away.

Did the suspect have a gun? I can't find any mention of that in the linked article

 

[Paul1000RR]

i believe police are trained to shoot at 25 yrds but to pass the annual (i think its annual, it may be every 3 yrs) test it is 7 yrds, full mag on the paper on target..which really, isnt that hard.

another thing is a lot of cops are opting for the shorter barrel plastic guns like glock 22 or 23 and smith and wesson m&p40 just because of the carry weight. really most cops here will never do anything more than unbuckle their holster pouch when approaching a swerving car, ive heard of gun smiths pulling the corners of ketchup packets out of the older sig p226's when they use to carry those.

the problem with the plastic guns is the .40sw they are using is very snappy and hard to shoot, add in the light frames, crappy OEM triggers, the add the duty carry heavy spring kits they have to have in there and it makes shooting follow up shots very difficult for those who dont regularly train with their carry weapon. and the further their target is the wider their shooting group gets.
they need to think about switching to 9mm (maybe even +p) rounds like the mil did.

 

[geoff-9]

Did the suspect have a gun? I can't find any mention of that in the linked article

witnesses in one of the star articles said the officers yelled 5 times to drop the gun then he turned it on them... then they fired

 

[Paul1000RR]

witnesses in one of the star articles said the officers yelled 5 times to drop the gun then he turned it on them... then they fired

was he doing back flips while all this was going on?

cause if he was standing still and 4 cops couldn't hit their target then perhaps they might want to look for another line of work...

 

[geoff-9]

was he doing back flips while all this was going on?

cause if he was standing still and 4 cops couldn't hit their target then perhaps they might want to look for another line of work...

so your saying they should have killed him... what makes you think they didn't hit their target, maybe they took advise from the internet know-it-all's to shoot him in the legs and arms to wound him. where in the article does it say the officers missed their target? all it says is 4 officers fired and the person has gunshot wounds, so was obviously hit more then once. like always your making conclusions without knowing the facts, they could have missed, I don't know and neither do you.

 

[RockerGuy]

I don't really get the excuse of "firing under pressure", aren't they supposed to be trained to handle matters under stress? Poor excuse

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[FiReSTaRT]

I don't really get the excuse of "firing under pressure", aren't they supposed to be trained to handle matters under stress? Poor excuse

That part I can see... Firing when the clock is running is a lot different than firing off a line and I can only begin to imagine how it would be if the target can shoot back. Never shot .40 out of tupperware but I found it to be snappier than 9mm. Shot a G17 and the accuracy I got was pretty decent compared to my big hunk of Czech steel that I wouldn't want on my hip all day every day. The coyote incident indicates that this wasn't just shooting under stress- too many of our LEO's suffer from pisspoor marksmanship syndrome. Can't just blame it on the guns either. I know plenty of cops who run their DAO tupperware in .40 on the clock and can make me look bad while they're having an off-day. That takes practice that only an enthusiast is willing to put in, though.

 

[raginduck]

I don't really get the excuse of "firing under pressure", aren't they supposed to be trained to handle matters under stress? Poor excuse

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Pretty sure they don't have people firing live rounds at them while they're training!?

 

[FiReSTaRT]

Pretty sure they don't have people firing live rounds at them while they're training!?

Exactly.. Even though I've never experienced it (and hope I never do), I've heard from plenty of people who have that it's a whole different ballgame. That's why I pointed out the coyote incident to underline that even in a situation that's not life or death, our constables still need better firearm training.

 

[raginduck]

Exactly.. Even though I've never experienced it (and hope I never do), I've heard from plenty of people who have that it's a whole different ballgame. That's why I pointed out the coyote incident to underline that even in a situation that's not life or death, our constables still need better firearm training.

I think that the problem goes beyond firearm training.. and is more of an over-all reflection of the people that are becoming cops.... which is probably a reflection of society as a whole. I see a distinct difference with the older cops and the newer generation.

 

[Snobike Mike]

But remember folks, only the police and army should have guns......

 

[Snobike Mike]

That part I can see... Firing when the clock is running is a lot different than firing off a line and I can only begin to imagine how it would be if the target can shoot back. Never shot .40 out of tupperware but I found it to be snappier than 9mm. Shot a G17 and the accuracy I got was pretty decent compared to my big hunk of Czech steel that I wouldn't want on my hip all day every day. The coyote incident indicates that this wasn't just shooting under stress- too many of our LEO's suffer from pisspoor marksmanship syndrome. Can't just blame it on the guns either. I know plenty of cops who run their DAO tupperware in .40 on the clock and can make me look bad while they're having an off-day. That takes practice that only an enthusiast is willing to put in, though.

For sure .40 is snappier, but this and many other police firearm situation/problems are not solved by the relative snappiness between 9 or 40 in a glock. It's all about training training training and practice practice practice. Most sport shooters shoot far more than the average officer does on an annual basis.