Managing amateur track day risk | Page 10 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Managing amateur track day risk

Duster929 said:
I'd disagree with you on this one. I think instincts are often wrong, particularly in difficult, intense situations, and that's where training comes in. Experience is part of training, among other things. Training, acquired in a cool, calm, rational state of mind, is what's going to save you when the crap hits the fan. When you're dealing with life-and-death type stuff, you can't rely on learning by experience and instinct. Some things, you just don't get to repeat until you get it right.
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+1

Experience means nothing unless you learn properly from it.

So many people practice lapping on track days without ever analyzing what they're doing wrong. They'll do lap after lap, session after session, track day after track day, and have tons of experience running the same wrong lines, upsetting the suspension, etc.

A similar rider with the same aptitude with much less experience but more training will leap frog the rider above, having the benefit of a third party with more knowledge (and good coaching skills) critique their riding and teach them new skills and techniques.
 
Lightcycle said:
+1

Experience means nothing unless you learn properly from it.

So many people practice lapping on track days without ever analyzing what they're doing wrong. They'll do lap after lap, session after session, track day after track day, and have tons of experience running the same wrong lines, upsetting the suspension, etc.

A similar rider with the same aptitude with much less experience but more training will leap frog the rider above, having the benefit of a third party with more knowledge (and good coaching skills) critique their riding and teach them new skills and techniques.
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This describes the VAST majority of trackday riders.
 
Maybe experience and experience alone isn't the correct word or correct practise. I'd have to agree. Experience founded on good teaching is 100% correct. As has been mentioned ad infinitum on here a good schooling is essential and the desire to learn and improve always helps. I always try to go out with a game plan. Where experience can help is when it starts to go pearshaped. And if we get down to basics the OP is talking about how to avoid your day turning upside down.
 
Lightcycle said:
+1

Experience means nothing unless you learn properly from it.

So many people practice lapping on track days without ever analyzing what they're doing wrong. They'll do lap after lap, session after session, track day after track day, and have tons of experience running the same wrong lines, upsetting the suspension, etc.

A similar rider with the same aptitude with much less experience but more training will leap frog the rider above, having the benefit of a third party with more knowledge (and good coaching skills) critique their riding and teach them new skills and techniques.
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If they're not crashing or causing a danger to anyone, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If they're safe and having fun, they're having a good track day.
 
As an avid trackday rider for the past 4 years, I'd like to throw in my own 2 cents for what it is worth.

With everything that has happened, my own confidence is shaken. I ride in yellow and I will admit that the intermediate group has in the past and can be the biggest risk because of the large spread in abilities and closing speeds.

Each trackday organizer has specific passing rules for each group. The problem is that riders (particularly in intermediate) choose to ignore those rules to the detriment of themselves and their fellow riders. The second problem is that the organizers must in my opinion discipline those riders that fail to observe the rules of the group they are signed up for.

I sign up for a group knowing the rules and the associated risks. If the rules are not followed or enforced, then my risk increases.

Waivers are only good for the trackday provider if the rules are enforced. If providers fail to enforce rules, they can be found negligent and at the end of the day if enough providers cannot get insurance or riders are no longer prepared to take the additional risks, then we all lose out.

I strongly encourage all riders to follow the rules established for the group you are riding in. I also strongly encourage the trackday organizers to enforce the rules and if necessary discipline riders so that we can ride with acceptable risk.
 
Lightcycle said:
+1

Experience means nothing unless you learn properly from it.

So many people practice lapping on track days without ever analyzing what they're doing wrong. They'll do lap after lap, session after session, track day after track day, and have tons of experience running the same wrong lines, upsetting the suspension, etc.

A similar rider with the same aptitude with much less experience but more training will leap frog the rider above, having the benefit of a third party with more knowledge (and good coaching skills) critique their riding and teach them new skills and techniques.
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............. Ahhhhhhhh, you understand grasshopper ............ good.
 
scoobz said:
As an avid trackday rider for the past 4 years, I'd like to throw in my own 2 cents for what it is worth.

With everything that has happened, my own confidence is shaken. I ride in yellow and I will admit that the intermediate group has in the past and can be the biggest risk because of the large spread in abilities and closing speeds.

Each trackday organizer has specific passing rules for each group. The problem is that riders (particularly in intermediate) choose to ignore those rules to the detriment of themselves and their fellow riders. The second problem is that the organizers must in my opinion discipline those riders that fail to observe the rules of the group they are signed up for.

I sign up for a group knowing the rules and the associated risks. If the rules are not followed or enforced, then my risk increases.

Waivers are only good for the trackday provider if the rules are enforced. If providers fail to enforce rules, they can be found negligent and at the end of the day if enough providers cannot get insurance or riders are no longer prepared to take the additional risks, then we all lose out.

I strongly encourage all riders to follow the rules established for the group you are riding in. I also strongly encourage the trackday organizers to enforce the rules and if necessary discipline riders so that we can ride with acceptable risk.
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Agreed. I ride in the yellow group, and I've been passed, on the inside, in corners where it is expressly against the rules. I've yet to see anyone disciplined for it. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen anyone disciplined for anything on the track. I'm sure it happens, but it's not happening so often that I've noticed. Again, I'm not saying that either of these accidents happened because someone broke the rules.
 
Duster929 said:
Agreed. I ride in the yellow group, and I've been passed, on the inside, in corners where it is expressly against the rules. I've yet to see anyone disciplined for it. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen anyone disciplined for anything on the track. I'm sure it happens, but it's not happening so often that I've noticed. Again, I'm not saying that either of these accidents happened because someone broke the rules.
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You need to report it to the marshalls. They can only see so much.
 
Duster929 said:
I'm pretty sure the marshalls have a good view of Temptation at Calabogie.
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My point is that they're not always watching for what you're watching for. They may forget what group it is, etc.

If you're really cheesed about it then report it to the marshalls and that person will get spoken to.
 
CrazyKell said:
My point is that they're not always watching for what you're watching for. They may forget what group it is, etc.

If you're really cheesed about it then report it to the marshalls and that person will get spoken to.
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Nah, it doesn't cheese me off that much. My only point was that it's a violation of the rules, and I've seen it more than once or twice.
 
Duster929 said:
Nah, it doesn't cheese me off that much. My only point was that it's a violation of the rules, and I've seen it more than once or twice.
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There have been occassions when I have been made the decision to overtake on the inside, when the rider in front makes a hash of the corner and goes way wide or even off track. Not going inside would be bad for me and anyone close behind me.

I agree that diving up the inside approaching the apex should not be tolerated in intermediate.

/rs
 
Duster929 said:
I'm pretty sure the marshalls have a good view of Temptation at Calabogie.
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Marshalls may not know the rules that govern each group.

I only did one (car) track day as a marshall (at Mosport) and we were told which group is out and what they can and cannot do, but I don't know if this happens everywhere else.
 
Lightcycle said:
Pro6 permits passing on the inside past the apex. If the rider in front of you has went wide, then it should be easy to drive up the inside when exiting the corner. Provided that you are at least as fast as the rider in front of you or faster.
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This is where learning to be smooth and predictable will really help those behind you to safely get around you. Smooth and predictable should be the goal of any track rider regardless of other desires or goals. When you smooth things out and are capable of repeating lines, lap after lap, you are then able to work on little things to help you improve. Altering brake markers, corner entry points, mid corner etc... Those things are then what allow you be able to pass slower riders safely without tailing them lap after lap getting ****** that they're parked on "the line" in the corners but nail it on the straights not letting you passed. You learn to be smooth and predicable by turning laps, preferably (should be mandatory) after some good guidance from an instructor. IMO that's the foundation of track riding. whatever else you want to build on top of that, it's your choice. If it's just out riding around the track having fun, and riding your bike in ways you can't do on the street, more power to ya. If it's coming out with the intention of standing on a motogp podium 1 day, well, good luck. But you need to start off and never forget the basics. If you just go out and wing it, you're a danger to yourself, and everyone else you share the track with.

I've shared the track with both, and it sure is nice coming up on a slower rider and knowing exactly what they're going to do, and where they're going to be all the way around the corner. On the other hand it's just scary being on the track with someone who's all over the place and out of shape in every corner. I usually try and distance myself from them either by pulling into the pits, or by passing if I can.

All that said, **** can and will happen. The best you can do is buy the best gear you can afford and wear it, seek the best training you can afford, listen to and apply it, and make sure your bike is in good mechanical condition and fit for a racetrack. Beyond that, you've done the best you can do.
 
A lot of folks are talking about when it's ok to pass in the corners, but that's not what I was referring to. The point that was made earlier, by someone else, is that some of the enforcement of rules is inconsistent/nonexistent. My post was:

Duster929 said:
Agreed. I ride in the yellow group, and I've been passed, on the inside, in corners where it is expressly against the rules. I've yet to see anyone disciplined for it. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen anyone disciplined for anything on the track. I'm sure it happens, but it's not happening so often that I've noticed.
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I'm not talking about passes after the apex or anything like that. I'm talking about passes, in places and on corners, where it's against the rules. I'm saying that I haven't seen anyone yet being disciplined for breaking those rules. The fact that I would have to "tell a marshall" or "complain" means that the rules aren't actually enforced. And the fact that the rules only apply in certain conditions, also means they aren't very good rules.

Let's be honest, folks. In the intermediate group, there are lots of "exceptions" to the rules and lots of stuff is tolerated even though it breaks the rules. The discussion about it in this thread is just more evidence of that.
 
rsilk said:
There have been occassions when I have been made the decision to overtake on the inside, when the rider in front makes a hash of the corner and goes way wide or even off track. Not going inside would be bad for me and anyone close behind me.
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I was going to make the same point but you worded it better than I. :) This happened to me a few times on my last day where I was left with no good choice other than to pass by just maintaining my intended line. The only other option would be to follow the other rider off line which could turn out badly.
 
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