heel-toe vs brake and blip (motorcycle)

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I've been driving a manual vehicle for over 20 years..I still find it harder to heel-toe. I have a bit of a physical issue that makes it harder for me that it should be, but still, I think it'd still be tougher for me.
 
invictus43 said:
8-|
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boarder360 said:
I think his 3 F1 championships might disagree.
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It's kinda true. There is no theory that can explain the benefit of Senna's jerky throttle input, yet it's hard to imagine that it cost him any time considering the world-class competition that he beat. So it's probably best to avoid using his technique as a way to illustrate the ideal throttle application, regardless of how well it seems to have worked for him.
 
fastar1 said:
It's kinda true. There is no theory that can explain the benefit of Senna's jerky throttle input, yet it's hard to imagine that it cost him any time considering the world-class competition that he beat. So it's probably best to avoid using his technique as a way to illustrate the ideal throttle application, regardless of how well it seems to have worked for him.
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Senna was gifted with unbelievable ability. People will always critique when somebody does something outside the norm even when it works. Especially when they themselves cannot do it. An incredibly obtuse vision but that's what makes the world go around.
 
rmemedic said:
I still reach for the clutch in my new truck that is automatic lol.
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I got this beat ... I was test driving an A4 automatic with the stupid triptonic (or whatever the call it) I decided to try out the sport shift, so I tap it over the light goes green and I take off when I go to tap down into the next gear I automatically with my left foot reach for the nearest pedal and slam on the brakes, mean while revving the crap out of the engine. The look onthe dealer's face was priceless, he had no idea what was going on.
 
RedDogDarren said:
Not sure if I am stating it correctly but I've ridden with a LOT of guys, track riders, street jockeys, etc. And alway found it amusing to listen to the throttle blipping and watch the spasmodic wrist motions while I am already just rolling into the throttle without much indication of even having downshifted. I like smoothness over everything else and blipping is the antithesis of smooth when street riding.
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lol this guy HAS to be a troll

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RedDogDarren said:
Not sure if I am stating it correctly but I've ridden with a LOT of guys, track riders, street jockeys, etc. And alway found it amusing to listen to the throttle blipping and watch the spasmodic wrist motions while I am already just rolling into the throttle without much indication of even having downshifted. I like smoothness over everything else and blipping is the antithesis of smooth when street riding.
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Riiight, you dont rev match and you slooowly let out the clutch? Thats fine when slowing down at a light. Try doing that while riding spirited and listen and watch that rear tire start to chatter and skip as you overload the tire trying to spin up the engine.

Did that once when i first started riding and i **** myself. Entering a corner too fast i downshift to second hard and dont rev match....all i feel is the rear of the bike hopping as the tire first for traction. Had i had to lean it over into a corner at that time i would have been fubared.

And Senna IS the master...who cares about his throttle input, that is not being discussed here but his ability to heel toe in LOAFERS.

1500HP F1 cars with ZERO traction control who were on the edge of traction at all times and he mastered them....
 
kellen said:
lol this guy HAS to be a troll

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Why? Because something works well for me street riding? You can do all the lol and lmao all you want if it makes you feel better or superior. As painful as it may to you, your opinion (which you entitled to and I respect) is irrelevent.

Perhaps instead of a smug response you can shed light on what I should be doing? I will read it with an open mind if you so choose to post something other than bandwidth wasting comments.
 
Red_Liner740 said:
Riiight, you dont rev match and you slooowly let out the clutch? Thats fine when slowing down at a light. Try doing that while riding spirited and listen and watch that rear tire start to chatter and skip as you overload the tire trying to spin up the engine.
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Never had a problem.
 
RedDogDarren said:
Senna was gifted with unbelievable ability. People will always critique when somebody does something outside the norm even when it works. Especially when they themselves cannot do it. An incredibly obtuse vision but that's what makes the world go around.
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Or the flip side, which is to simply copy whatever appears to be working without ever understanding the what or why of it. Personally I think healthy skepticism is a better approach.
 
Apparently i need to watch more car racing. Thats ridiculous looking lol
 
fastar1 said:
I found it easier to rev match in cars than bikes, but I learned it in cars first which may be the reason. What car do you drive? Some pedal arrangements are worse than others. Also, it helps to brake relatively hard so that the brake pedal is a bit closer to the throttle when it comes time to blip. Also, the term "heel/toe" is just carried over from a long time ago when pedals were further apart. You actually want to use the inside and outside edge of the ball of your foot. If you brake hard enough with just the edge of the pedal you might even hit the gas pedal with the outside edge of your foot inadvertently. It also helps to be using the higher RPM band, so you can just slam the throttle crudely and get the right amount of blip. At lower RPM you have to be more subtle, it takes finesse. I find it's particularly true with FWD, where a slight RPM mismatch can really unsettle the car. With FWD and low RPM, I can't rev match smoothly at all.
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i got an s2000...its supposedly one of the easiest cars to heel-toe in. I plan on installing some race-ish pedals to make the gas more accessible to the brake pedal.

I ask about the practicality of heel-toeing on the street also because none of my friends who drive stick think its necessary to learn for street applications...but then again they're a bunch of show-boaters. I'll keep in mind the thing you said about keeping RPM high while rev matching, though I've also found that its easier to miss-shift when you have full access to all the gears unlike on a bike's transmission
 
how many people heel and toe driving in the city i wonder lol. because getting to their destination in grid lock traffic will be less boring.
 
RedDogDarren said:
I like smoothness over everything else and blipping is the antithesis of smooth when street riding.
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Completely untrue. Unless you're riding with a slipper clutch, a smooth and quick down shift without a blip isn't possible. You'll get nothing but rear wheel hop or chatter. Give the blip an honest try, you'll see the difference.
 
TomC said:
i got an s2000...its supposedly one of the easiest cars to heel-toe in. I plan on installing some race-ish pedals to make the gas more accessible to the brake pedal.

I ask about the practicality of heel-toeing on the street also because none of my friends who drive stick think its necessary to learn for street applications...but then again they're a bunch of show-boaters. I'll keep in mind the thing you said about keeping RPM high while rev matching, though I've also found that its easier to miss-shift when you have full access to all the gears unlike on a bike's transmission
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That car has to have a great pedal setup, so that's not the issue (though racing pedals can still help).

H&T shifting during casual day-to-day driving is pretty much a waste. You have to be driving a bit 'in anger' (high RPM, hard braking) for it to be effective and like I said, it makes it easier too.

Try it in stages. First, find the level of braking that results in the edge of your foot just touching the gas pedal. Don't H&T yet, just get familiar with the brake force you're applying. Next, brake that hard and as you clutch in just give the gas pedal a crude blip by rolling your foot on the edge of the brake pedal. Keep the clutch in and just guage if there was any jerkiness while blipping under braking. Then try it with the full downshift. The shifter should fall into the right gear on it's own as long as you don't worry about trying to follow the H pattern. For example going 3rd to 2nd just pull the shifter diagonally towards you and let it follow it's own path. It should slip into place without any thought. Also, preload the shifter before hitting the clutch to make the sequence that little bit more seamless.
 
Whenever I can I H/T. Coming to a stop at a sudden yellow or on the 401 with idiots if I have a bit of time to come to a stop. It took a while to get the brake pedal pressure correct for different applications but it just takes practice. I did it all the time untill I could do it properly, wouldn't want to try and learn it on a track, you'll screw up alot. It's easier on a bike for sure and when done correctly is smooth with both vehicles.
 
Heel - Toe is harder.

Question: why do you do the heel toe when you're fairly new driving a standard tranny car?.

Heel - Toe is for people who race on the track.
They don't want to loose engine momentum on corners to straight away which is regular done with rev matching as well (Track) .

Or when they try to make the car sideways (drifting).

careful doing this on the street.
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