heel-toe vs brake and blip (motorcycle)

TomC

TomC

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Question for the car guys: would you say heel-toe is more difficult to master than brake and blip on a bike? Blipping while braking on my bikes was straight forward enough and i picked it up in my first season of riding (though at the track or under stress, i tend to just slowly let out the clutch).

I've been driving my first manual tranny car for 3 weeks now, but the thought of actually trying heel-toe seems so far fetched right now
 
I will never blip the throttle on a bike. It's far more natural for me to match engine speed smoothly and effectively.
 
The idea is the same but for different vehicles. On a bike when downshifting you blip the throttle to rev match what he is doing is as he is braking he is also bliping the throttle to ensure a smooth downshift. In a manual car you have 3 pedals and 2 feet that control your acceleration, brake, and clutch. The heel toe method is a means of braking with the toe of the left foot while bliping the throttle with the heel of the left foot, while the right foot pushes in the clutch so he can downshift. Hope that helps clear things up.

EDIT: regarding the OPs question. On my bike I haven't needed to. Usually I find that when I brake I am losing speed quickly enough that when I down shift its usually smooth. As for the manual car thing I've been driving stick since before learning to ride and I think part of what makes it hard is the fact that you lack a reference point when your doing it. At least that's the trouble I've encountered.
 
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RedDogDarren said:
I will never blip the throttle on a bike. It's far more natural for me to match engine speed smoothly and effectively.
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Not sue I understand. How does one match revs without a blip of the throttle?

With the exception of panic stops, I always blip on the down shift. Very simple to master and so satisfying when done correctly. For me, one of the great pleasures of motorcycling.

Tom, don't allow the phrase "heel and toe" to fool you. Essentially, you're trying to cover two pedals with one foot. Do it however you like. Sometimes it might be necessary to alter the position of the loud pedal in relation to the brake; do so at your own risk. As always, practice makes perfect.
 
RedDogDarren said:
I will never blip the throttle on a bike. It's far more natural for me to match engine speed smoothly and effectively.
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lol

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I like "experts" in this place... Some people have some real talent it seems.

I would say that heel-toing is harder. I learned to drive a standard before I was 16, and practically all my vehicles have been standard.... So I have about 18 years on standard, and I used to drive truck. That's where I really learned how tow do it. No synchro in the transmission, so you need to rev match to come down in the gears while breaking, and it's easiest to hit every gear on the way down so you know where you are in the gear range.
Eventually, driving stick becomes automatic. I still reach for the clutch in my new truck that is automatic lol.
 
trilea said:
The heel toe method is a means of braking with the toe of the left foot while bliping the throttle with the heel of the left foot, while the right foot pushes in the clutch so he can downshift. Hope that helps clear things up.
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I prefer to press the clutch pedal with my left foot, then brake and throttle with my right foot. It feels much more natural than the cross legged method above. :)
 
Seriously, use the brake pedal. Decrease the speed until you are in a range to downshift and let the clutch out without over revving your car.

If you are tracking your car you can start practicing heel toe there. Usually the best advice is to set up your pedals so they are close to each other by either buying aftermarket ones that have a large surface on the inside of the brake/gas or bending them so they are close. Then it's whatever works for you. Some mash both at the same time, some rotate their heel out to the gas and some guys left foot brake (which takes a lot of practice to get the braking right) but is usually for keeping the turbo spooled as much as a braking style.

Anyway, it's harder in a car but like anything it becomes second nature when you need it. I have had a few high redline close ratio car transmissions and never needed to HT them on the street. Put wear on brakes, not transmissions. Replacement rotors are cheaper than replacement transmissions.
 
a car is MUCH harder to properly heel toe than to rev match a motorcycle...Most cars now-a-days dont setup their pedal so its even possible. My Maxima was horrible, the Mustang as well, the BMW and Civic are okay. In the end, heel toeing a car is unnecessary unless you are at 9/10th pushing it. Who cares if you upset the car suspension if you're breaking in a straight line....

With motorcycles its different because you have to go through each gear, might as well utilize engine breaking while downshifting and upsetting a bike while breaking even straightline is a lot more dangerous than a car.
 
trilea said:
The heel toe method is a means of braking with the toe of the left foot while bliping the throttle with the heel of the left foot, while the right foot pushes in the clutch so he can downshift. Hope that helps clear things up.
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That's backwards -- You still clutch with your left as always, and then cover the brake and gas with your right foot. Depending on the size of your foot, distance of pedals, etc people either actually do use their toe on the brake and heel on the gas, or kind of roll their foot from brake to gas to blip the throttle (if that makes sense). I typically always rev match when shifting down in the car, however I don't try to heel/toe as I can never cover both pedals effectively (I just come off the brake for a millisecond to downshift, then go back on the brake.

With that said there is also left-foot braking, which I know some racers do. I can't remember the details on that one, except for the fact that although it might be faster it isn't brake nor drivetrain friendly (like rev matching or heel/toeing is).
 
Doing it in the car i find way harder. Pedals are lined up properly to do it in my subi and i can do it at half braking no problem but definitely way less effective with it in my car.
 
Jayell said:
Not sue I understand. How does one match revs without a blip of the throttle?
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Not sure if I am stating it correctly but I've ridden with a LOT of guys, track riders, street jockeys, etc. And alway found it amusing to listen to the throttle blipping and watch the spasmodic wrist motions while I am already just rolling into the throttle without much indication of even having downshifted. I like smoothness over everything else and blipping is the antithesis of smooth when street riding.
 
On a bike with a Slipper clutch, you don't need to blip when down shifting. Without it, I always try to.
For HT in a car, it really depends on the car. As mentioned above, Subaru's are setup for this type of driving, it's very easy to do in my WRX. My Volkswagen was not nearly as easy! It depends on the pedal placement as well as the ergonomics of the driver.
 
TomC said:
Question for the car guys: would you say heel-toe is more difficult to master than brake and blip on a bike? Blipping while braking on my bikes was straight forward enough and i picked it up in my first season of riding (though at the track or under stress, i tend to just slowly let out the clutch).

I've been driving my first manual tranny car for 3 weeks now, but the thought of actually trying heel-toe seems so far fetched right now
Click to expand...

I found it easier to rev match in cars than bikes, but I learned it in cars first which may be the reason. What car do you drive? Some pedal arrangements are worse than others. Also, it helps to brake relatively hard so that the brake pedal is a bit closer to the throttle when it comes time to blip. Also, the term "heel/toe" is just carried over from a long time ago when pedals were further apart. You actually want to use the inside and outside edge of the ball of your foot. If you brake hard enough with just the edge of the pedal you might even hit the gas pedal with the outside edge of your foot inadvertently. It also helps to be using the higher RPM band, so you can just slam the throttle crudely and get the right amount of blip. At lower RPM you have to be more subtle, it takes finesse. I find it's particularly true with FWD, where a slight RPM mismatch can really unsettle the car. With FWD and low RPM, I can't rev match smoothly at all.
 
I find heel-toe easier, despite learning how to blip/brake years before. In terms of use, I mix things up a bit.

Car, street: heel-toe
Car, track: heel-toe
Bike, street: blip/brake
Bike, track: slipper clutch
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