Fuel prices on the west coast | Page 4 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Fuel prices on the west coast

FullMotoJacket

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Last I checked 3 million a day was considerably more than 1.3 million a day and that’s not factoring in bus ridership.
There are 3x more people in London than Toronto.
 

jc100

Well-known member
Guess you missed the bit about that being only the tube passengers. Add in the bus network and the docklands light railway and the regional rail services that extend into the burbs.

Perhaps “it’s 3 million just for the tube” might have been better? Oh and the bus network is the most extensive in the world apparently, 2 billion passenger journeys a year.

Comprehension is still a thing in schools in this country right? Toodles.
 
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Mad Mike

Well-known member
Last I checked 3 million a day was considerably more than 1.3 million a day and that’s not factoring in bus ridership.
Yes it is however you have to remember London has 8.1 million compared to Toronto at 2.7. Using the the most current published numbers for London and Toronto -- Toronto has a much higher per capita daily ridership.
City PopulationRail Transit riders/dayTrips/Capita
London8.103.720.46
Toronto2.701.650.61

Also look at how inefficient the Tube is compared to the TTC. The Tube cost $9.5BILLION a year to operate, that's twice as expensive per ride and 4x the cost of operating the whole TTC. A single ride averages in the Tube averages $6.75 -- more than twice the TTC cost.
Run a small 4 stroke engine, say 1600cc side by side with a pick up truck hemi and tell me which one emits more CO2 and particulates over the same time period. It’s a simple matter of scaleable stoichiometry applied to a combustion equation.
It's not that simple. Smaller engines will emit more Nox and particulates, bigger engines in some circumstances more CO2 as small engines are rarely as efficient at combustion compared to their large brethern. Small engines often win at C02, but probably not in congested urban areas where Nox and particulates are the health hazard, the little engines getting stomped to make power pollute more than big engines.
The problem isn’t bad engines. Every car in the uk has to pass an MOT test. It’s the number of vehicles and the size of the engines in those vehicles.
No one said bad engines, it's bad enforcement meaning the standards for testing and the degree of compliance over lifecycle are lax and lag behind in Europe. Their words, not mine.
Edit: just to be picky, the increased CO value indicates less efficient combustion.
No sir, it does not. While it's true that a 5l Ford engine may produce slightly 1/3 more C02 than a 1.6 Fiat, the Fiat produces 3x the NMHC and 2x as much NOx -- because the Fiat small engine is a lot less efficient.

Now, if you argued cars vs trucks in North America you might have a point. You suggested we Canadians were neanderthals and the Brits approach to taxing the bejesus out of fuel, wildly subsidizing inefficient public transit has made their air cleaner... you're just dead wrong. Most of Europe, England included, is a political quagmire. They are ahead of North America in very little, been that way since we saved them from destroying themselves... twice.
 

jc100

Well-known member
Yes it is however you have to remember London has 8.1 million compared to Toronto at 2.7. Using the the most current published numbers for London and Toronto -- Toronto has a much higher per capita daily ridership.
City PopulationRail Transit riders/dayTrips/Capita
London8.103.720.46
Toronto2.701.650.61

Also look at how inefficient the Tube is compared to the TTC. The Tube cost $9.5BILLION a year to operate, that's twice as expensive per ride and 4x the cost of operating the whole TTC. A single ride averages in the Tube averages $6.75 -- more than twice the TTC cost.
It's not that simple. Smaller engines will emit more Nox and particulates, bigger engines in some circumstances more CO2 as small engines are rarely as efficient at combustion compared to their large brethern. Small engines often win at C02, but probably not in congested urban areas where Nox and particulates are the health hazard, the little engines getting stomped to make power pollute more than big engines.
No one said bad engines, it's bad enforcement meaning the standards for testing and the degree of compliance over lifecycle are lax and lag behind in Europe. Their words, not mine.
No sir, it does not. While it's true that a 5l Ford engine may produce slightly 1/3 more C02 than a 1.6 Fiat, the Fiat produces 3x the NMHC and 2x as much NOx -- because the Fiat small engine is a lot less efficient.

Now, if you argued cars vs trucks in North America you might have a point. You suggested we Canadians were neanderthals and the Brits approach to taxing the bejesus out of fuel, wildly subsidizing inefficient public transit has made their air cleaner... you're just dead wrong. Most of Europe, England included, is a political quagmire. They are ahead of North America in very little, been that way since we saved them from destroying themselves... twice.
Carbon monoxide is a byproduct of incomplete combustion. That’s just chemistry. As for your other measures things get a little more complex and I don’t pretend to be an engineer but I am a chemist. A car or truck running at 2x mpg vs one running at x mpg will produce less gaseous emissions overall and less CO2 overall as it uses less fuel to move the same distance. Since the carbon tax is one based mostly on CO2 emissions that’s what’s important here. Plus as the mpg is also affected by weight, bigger and heavier vehicles are obviously more affected.

Particulate pollution and testing of vehicles. There probably is an advantage here in North America as many cars are made to comply with Californian standards which are some of the most stringent in the world. Plus, as fuel has been traditionally cheap in NA diesel passenger cars don’t seem as popular here as in Europe and diesel emissions have, until relatively recently, been more polluting (recent VW scandal for example).

The London transit system includes the bus network which is the most extensive in the world. I gave you the tube only figures. Add in DLR, bus and regional rail services within the commuter network to get your comparative figures.

I never said Neanderthals, those are your words not mine. I just said that here you have been spoiled for quite a long time by having relatively inexpensive access to large gas guzzling cars and trucks and inexpensive fuel to feed them with. If that statement is wrong I’ll happily take it back.

Who said anything about North America and advances? I said Canada lags behind in some areas, and these aren’t often seen by the general public but they can be crucial areas. Things like drug approval processes, there’s a whole slew of drugs approved in Europe that either are not approved here yet or have only just been approved and some of these are very useful like RU486. Healthcare protocols can be very different especially with things like cancer care and preventative medicine. Even trivial things like chip and pin debit and credit cards came to Canada 4 years after their roll out in Europe. I only mention these things because Canada is a great place to live but it makes me wonder how much better it could be if it was more efficient in some areas.

Oh, just for fun I looked up about 10 different sites to see how public transport ranked around the world and while I didn’t find Toronto on any I did find London on all of them.

I’m tired now, is there anything else you’re dead wrong about?
 
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killvino

Well-known member
as mythbusters tested previously : LINK
motorcycles pollute more than cars, so if you go by that metric and 'needs' we should all no longer ride and just all drive econoboxes and EVs.
with the capitalist society we live in, its more than just meeting needs.
it's about enjoying life, buying sh!t you want.
I just got a 1st gen raptor for when i'm not on the bike.
Yes, i do use the truck bed and have a trailer.
Could I get a hatchback/wagon and make do instead? yes.
but goddamn, this thing fun and comfy to rip around in.
 

caboose56

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I read these articles and discussions and all I can think of and ponder is how long are people going to keep playing a game that’s rigged.

If all you do is complain, you’re a chump. I grew tired of being a chump so I (almost completely) quit the game.

To the govt, you’re and ATM. To the oil and gas industry, you’re an ATM. The only way to make any difference is to alter what you’re doing.

Change the game, take your ball and go home. I’m not driving an EV to save the world. I’m doing it because I got fed up with being a chump and playing a game that’s rigged.
 

jc100

Well-known member
I'm no save the planet fanboy either. My favourite vehicle was a wildly impractical expensive to maintain Ford Explorer. I wouldn't actually mind it if Ontario warmed up 10 degrees....in winter. Thing is you have to be realistic now. Our choices are impacting what the future generations will have to deal with and if adapting means saving money too then that's a double benefit.

I feel like I have a good excuse for not having to be too eco conscious though as I don't have the #1 cause of environmental issues......kids. :p
 

caboose56

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Two kids or less. If we all had at most two kids we’d have a net reduction in population.
 

jc100

Well-known member
#1 cause of environmental issues is War.
Pretty sure it’s kids. There’s some calculation somewhere that estimates what the carbon footprint of a kid will be if they live to a certain age. Wars gets rid of people.

Not advocating for more wars by the way.
 

Trials

Well-known member
Do you know how much oil was spilled into the ocean during the battle for the Atlantic alone? ... nobody does!
Valdez was a drop in the bucket by comparison.

Then we have mercury, defoliants, radioactive waste and the obvious destruction of nuclear weapons testing and deployment :| let's face it, the planet was badly broken when you and I inherited it. Humans just happen to be the most dangerous, destructive animals currently inhabiting the little blue planet.
 

sburns

Well-known member
I read these articles and discussions and all I can think of and ponder is how long are people going to keep playing a game that’s rigged.

If all you do is complain, you’re a chump. I grew tired of being a chump so I (almost completely) quit the game.

To the govt, you’re and ATM. To the oil and gas industry, you’re an ATM. The only way to make any difference is to alter what you’re doing.

Change the game, take your ball and go home. I’m not driving an EV to save the world. I’m doing it because I got fed up with being a chump and playing a game that’s rigged.
Yes you are very right it is rigged. But you are still being dragged along with it one way or another.
(I drive a hybrid, smart thermostat, 97% efficient furnace, LED light bulbs, home insulated, all just to keep up with price increases)

When they move everyone away from fossil fuels they will have you cornered using electricity... then what, no way out and increases in pricing to offset what they lost in fuel pricing.
 

BB722

Well-known member
lol what's ironic is these politcians usually have multiple homes, fly private jets, vacate on yachts with the billionaires that own them, and get cheuffered around in their big cars.
 

Trials

Well-known member
Pierre Elliott Trudeau used to heli-ski Mount Tremblant with a machine gun armed RCMP escort and a stretch limo waited for him in the parking lot 😄
I know it because he almost wiped out my wife on his way down the back slope.
 

caboose56

Well-known member
Site Supporter
Yes you are very right it is rigged. But you are still being dragged along with it one way or another.
(I drive a hybrid, smart thermostat, 97% efficient furnace, LED light bulbs, home insulated, all just to keep up with price increases)

When they move everyone away from fossil fuels they will have you cornered using electricity... then what, no way out and increases in pricing to offset what they lost in fuel pricing.
It wasn’t long ago people said there was no way out from using fossil fuels.

What does the future hold? Roof top solar arrays with in home power storage to charge our EVs? Who knows... for now I’m happy that I can tilt the table in my favour. Not sure how long it’ll last.
 

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