Feds plan to melt ICE | Page 14 | GTAMotorcycle.com

Feds plan to melt ICE

Brian P said:
Sure, some regulation may be warranted to push this in the right direction. (Meh)

Here's some companies doing it:
li-cycle.com

Homepage

Li-Cycle's lithium-ion battery recycling - resources recovery process for critical materials. The battery recycling technology recovers ≥95% of all critical materials found in lithium-ion batteries.
li-cycle.com li-cycle.com
recyclico.com

RecycLiCo Battery Materials

A hydrometallurgical solution that recycles-upcycles up to 99% of li-ion cathode waste
recyclico.com recyclico.com

For more information:

EV Battery Recycling | Electric Autonomy Canada

News regarding the recycling of batteries used in electric vehicles, including companies that recycle EV batteries and automakers' efforts to recycle them
electricautonomy.ca electricautonomy.ca
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Curious if you would go to the tobacco industry to get your scientific info on cigarettes? Since the cobalt industry is who we should listen to for info on cobalt mining safety. Obviously companies looking for investments in battery recycling are the ones who are saying it's going to happen.

Sorry but Joe Rogan is literally more reliable then the sources you post.

I personally have tore down an EV battery close to the cell level. The one I took apart was relatively easy but I can't see anyway of it being economical as you need skilled labor, it's dangerous, time consuming and will not be able to be automated. When all done you are left with a bunch of used lithium ion batteries that need to be tested (this could be automated) and then can be sold at a discounted rate as it's anyone's guess how many charge cycles the cells have left. There are lots of recycled battery cells that can be purchased from china but it's always a gamble.

This is where battery recycling is at and anyone saying that they are going to get it down to the raw components is just selling vaporware to get government grants and investments.
 
On the everything comes with AC front... a company I worked for in the early 90s had a policy only mangers and up were allowed to have AC in company cars. Well they were buying cars for the supervisors and they all came with AC in the base model, they paid extra to have the AC removed!
 
woot said:
Curious if you would go to the tobacco industry to get your scientific info on cigarettes? Since the cobalt industry is who we should listen to for info on cobalt mining safety. Obviously companies looking for investments in battery recycling are the ones who are saying it's going to happen.
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The process has to start with people and companies who want to do it. If you listen only to naysayers, then nothing will EVER get done, nothing new would EVER be developed.
 
woot said:
Curious if you would go to the tobacco industry to get your scientific info on cigarettes? Since the cobalt industry is who we should listen to for info on cobalt mining safety. Obviously companies looking for investments in battery recycling are the ones who are saying it's going to happen.

Sorry but Joe Rogan is literally more reliable then the sources you post.

I personally have tore down an EV battery close to the cell level. The one I took apart was relatively easy but I can't see anyway of it being economical as you need skilled labor, it's dangerous, time consuming and will not be able to be automated. When all done you are left with a bunch of used lithium ion batteries that need to be tested (this could be automated) and then can be sold at a discounted rate as it's anyone's guess how many charge cycles the cells have left. There are lots of recycled battery cells that can be purchased from china but it's always a gamble.

This is where battery recycling is at and anyone saying that they are going to get it down to the raw components is just selling vaporware to get government grants and investments.
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Are you referring to Joe Rogan the comedian?
 
Brian P said:
The process has to start with people and companies who want to do it. If you listen only to naysayers, then nothing will EVER get done, nothing new would EVER be developed.
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I believe recycling will happen for economic reasons more than environmental reasons (although the environmental argument will be used to burn tons of government money in the quest for greenwashing completely infeasible solutions). Once you figure out the process, it should be cheaper to extract raw materials from packs than from the earth. When mining, lithium is something like 0.1% of the brine. In a battery, concentration is about 7%. While we are currently working on recycling as disassembly to cells and then reassembly, as mentioned, that is labour intensive (especially when some manufacturers do everything in their power to prevent this), I expect large scale recycling will go back to base metals. Then you don't care about careful disassembly nor the history of the pack. Conceptually, something like grinding a pack with dry ice (to remove heat and oxygen from inside the chamber). It's not quite that simple but there are a lot of smart people working on it.
 
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Brian P said:
The process has to start with people and companies who want to do it. If you listen only to naysayers, then nothing will EVER get done, nothing new would EVER be developed.
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What naysayers am I listening to? I was telling my own experiences and perspective as someone who has personally recycled EV battery packs, sourced recycled cells, designed and built an EV and works in manufacturing/automation for a company that spent $30m building what was supposed to be an EV battery assembly plant then pulled the plug because it wasn't commercially viable.

I'm not saying to listen only to naysayers. I'm saying look at both arguments and be critical of both. You make allot of excuses for EVs and have allot of faith in sales people working for companies that have nothing to show, backing your arguments up with websites dedicated to EVs. I don't think skepticism is outright a bad thing whether I'm reading a post from you or WestBrantKid.
 
timtune said:
I struggle with this part. Mine never failed to start. Little unimportant stuff broke but the motor was spot on.
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I remember working on them when I was younger, the drivelines were low power, agricultural, and fairly robust. Everything else -- not so much -- once out of warranty you needed better than average mechanical skills to own one.
 
That was the brilliance of the Niva , the 4 door KGB sedan not so much . On the Niva you could fix most issues with a flat head screwdriver and a socket set . The engines almost always ran, everything around them fell to pieces .


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Fuel pump had a manual override in case you needed some gas to light a fire while stranded in the Steppes....
 
woot said:
This is where battery recycling is at and anyone saying that they are going to get it down to the raw components is just selling vaporware to get government grants and investments.
Click to expand...

By "raw components", are you looking though the lens of the only option being "nice clean bags of products ready to feed back into the battery making machine to make new batteries"?

If you're trying to suggest it cannot and does not happen whatseover, well, you're just plain wrong.


We're in the infancy of lithium battery recycling right now, but in the years ahead, given the plethora of lithium batteries in every single device we all use every single day of our lives (EV's aside, are you typing your reply on a cellphone or laptop? Yeah, you're using a lithium battery), well, in 5 or 10 years time it will industrialized and a matter of routine.
 
I honestly couldn't bear to read through the whole 14 page thread, but I have an opinion on the EV as a work vehicle and/or truck.

Here goes, lifted from a post I made on Facebook.

A 100kph range from full on a F150 Lightning with a 5000lb trailer is 130km but that's right to fully dead, you couldn't do that. It takes 45 minutes with the fastest charging stations to get to 80% and about the same for the last 20%. Since highways don't do any regenerative braking, your range drops significantly from what's claimed which is why we're going with independent testing. It keeps getting worse because if it's cold your range will drop further. So, 100km is your white-knuckle range, 80km is probably more realistic for each stop to charge. That's right, 80km. This is from real-world testing done by reviewers, not claimed by Ford. If you want to go right until the battery is dead, that's on you.

So, you're looking at maybe 80km before you need to recharge, this time of year given that you're probably hauling on a highway and not through a city with regenerative braking. At best. There's not going to be fast charging that predictable or always free to use. Or working. Say hello again to white knuckles.

My diesel will pull my trailer with 5 bikes and 4 guys for 600km at 125kph where it likes to tow (I could save fuel by also dropping to 100kph). It takes 5 minutes to fill. Turn on the heated seats and crank the heat... no problems. Loaded that's 17,000lbs gross, the trailer with the bikes is approximately 7,000lbs + four 200lb (average) guys + gear + spare fuel + 200lb 140cc bike + 7,800lb diesel truck.

Let's math this real quick:

Provided you NEVER have to drive more than a minute off the highway (yahrite), and we don't count any washroom time or food gathering time, you can make the trip to Deal's Gap with my truck, from my door, in about 16 hours at an gross average rate of 100kph (real speed is mostly around 125kph but there are exceptions for states like Penn. which are marked 90kph for long periods of time and we slow down to maybe 105, plus our stops). We stop every 400km because that's 4 hours of driving each and the last stop is in Robbinsville to make sure we have plenty of fuel in her... note we stop mostly out of convenience, there is usually 1/4 tank left at each stop, so no white-knuckle worrying about fuel. Cost: around $550 USD round-trip including some trips to the town from our house for groceries etc.

Note: I used gross average speed because I do this every year, so I have the data. We do actually keep track, to split the costs etc.

Now let's do the EV truck... keeping in mind that it's cool in April all the way to Virginia and that my trailer is about 7,000lbs with the bikes + another 1,000lbs for us, gear and we'll even skip on the KXL for the hell of it. Range is a big question but we'll go with the above, about 100km before your knuckles start to creak.

Now you're going to have to depend on a fast charging network being available every 80-100km and fully available, and working, and not occupied. So let's! An 80% charge will take you about 45 minutes and a 100% charge will take another 45 minutes. Not sure what the strategy is but if you go to 80% now you're going to have to stop every 60-80km and if you go with 100% charge you're going to stop 80-100km away. Make your choice. Let's go with 100% and throw away any time spent getting off the highway to the charger. 100kph to keep your range reasonable is going to net you a lower average even for the on-road driving. So, that's, let's say, average of 80km before stopping and 1.5 hours per charge, I'll spot you 15 minutes if you really want but I'm already being kind to the F150 Lightning for range considering temperatures and mountains!

So, 1600km/80km = 20 stops. Oof. Giving the absolute MAXIMUM 100kph rate, that's 16 hours of driving, and 30 hours of charging. So again, ignoring any other time-robbing things including the time taken to drive off the highway to a charging station or looking for one, we come up with 46 hours to get there. There's at least a whole day out of your riding time in the mountains, you're going to arrive exhausted and ****** off, then you're going to have to leave a day early and go through the whole torturous experience again. As for costs, I'm told that the cost of each full charge will be a minimum of $35 USD but I'm sure it varies and I do not have direct experience with charging prices.

And that's why EV trucks make no @#$% sense if you're going to use them - you know - as trucks.
 

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GreyGhost said:
I believe recycling will happen for economic reasons more than environmental reasons (although the environmental argument will be used to burn tons of government money in the quest for greenwashing completely infeasible solutions). Once you figure out the process, it should be cheaper to extract raw materials from packs than from the earth. When mining, lithium is something like 0.1% of the brine. In a battery, concentration is about 7%. While we are currently working on recycling as disassembly to cells and then reassembly, as mentioned, that is labour intensive (especially when some manufacturers do everything in their power to prevent this), I expect large scale recycling will go back to base metals. Then you don't care about careful disassembly nor the history of the pack. Conceptually, something like grinding a pack with dry ice (to remove heat and oxygen from inside the chamber). It's not quite that simple but there are a lot of smart people working on it.
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There is a procedure to collect the gold from circuit boards but it's a complex process. There aren't lumps of gold hanging off the back. Batteries will be similar.
 
EV trucks will make sense as a city delivery , tractors and shuttle trucks and parts runners . This is where EV makes sense today . Extended range will get there.
At one point a car was limited to where it could travel because the roads didn’t exist , have patience.


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timtune said:
Not everyone's idea of using a truck is hauling bikes all the way to Deals Gap. Hell I actually rode my BIKE there.
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Nobody is forcing you to. However, that's not my thing, and this way we all can drive + stay there in the mountains for less money than it would take in just the tire cost of supersport tires that it would take to get there on the bike. Through April weather. I suspect the kind of riding we do is different too.

I also know that a lot of people drive trucks just because they like trucks. But they're not using them AS trucks much, so that's not my point.
 
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