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F35
- Thread starter D23
- Start date
OpenGambit
Banned
I am not the one advocating for an option that doesn't even exist. Might as well say that our f22s would be flown by santa's elves.
and no. i don't have an opinion on the f35, my opinion is that your argument is awful.
wake me up when you manage to negotiate the f22 deal.
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lol, hilarious.
go back and re-read your own posts in this thread.
"in this country and many others we expect peopel to pay their fair share of taxes, we have civic duties to society and democracy. We also have duties to our allies, and yes we have to furfill them unless you want to just be the 51st state."
here, you attempt to justify the continued participation of canada in the f35 scheme based upon what was arguably a stage 4 justification of this boondoggle (see post 167, for a reminder of the fallacy)
then a few posts later, you try to defend the harpos' version of bookkeeping and reporting in the f35 boondoggle:
"the 2nd point I would note is that I question the value of including things such as crew costs and maintenence costs into the calculation for the F35s, while they are appropriate additions from an accounting point of view in absolute costs, they are of little help in judging the relative cost of the F35 to other alternatives, and its not entirely clear whether those are sunk costs that would be spent in any event, or additional only because its the f35."
an unsubstantiated opinion that was proven both irrelevant and wrong when it was shown that the government CLEARLY knew it should have included the numbers in reporting, and then LIED to the canadian public about it.
so, tell us all again how you don't have an opinion, and that you sitting here in judgement of others is unbiased by "an opinion on the f35"???
maybe you should quit your day job and move into politics--they have much use for people who can talk out of both sides of their mouths. . .i hear they pay handsomely and have gold-plated pensions.
as for the continued palaver about the f22. . .
if we must, as others insist, buy an american plane, and it must be a multi-role 5th gen jet, that fits into this 'ncw' premise, based on criteria that the dnd cooked up and that the defence dept never even looked at before they approved it, then yeah, i guess we are stuck with the hypothetical f35--whenever that is a reality, and at what inflated cost NO ONE will ever be able to fathom.
to equate the f22 to santa's elves is a wholly specious argument. it exists. it is being built. it has a defined cost. it is in service. the f35 has none of these attributes, yet somehow it is more 'realistic' than the f22. lol. colour me completely convinced. . .people need to qualify their comments--the f22 is not an option, at present--a very significant qualifier.
when people stack up the hurdles preventing the f22 from being an option (a single, mutable political decision) versus the multitude of impediments to the f35 (no cost certainty, failed multiple tests, way behind schedule, losing support in the u.s., doesn't meet criteria for dnd, doesn't meet specs as promised by lockheed martin) i'm sure the math is dead simple as to which one is 'impossible'.
i'm sure the fact that there is german, australian, canadian, and even domestic american interest in re-ordering f22s is because it's an 'impossible' option. . .what were they thinking?
I love that after all of this, afong is cornered on one foot and the best he can do now is big up the F22 which isnt even for sale :lol:
I also thoroughly enjoy the fact that his arguments base around lack of public support for the F35, as if the US has ever fumbled such a large development in the end. The F22 was exactly the same story, and the F15 before it, and countless other military weapons developments. If you can count on our neighbours to do just one thing right, its to build amazing military equipment.
If this conversation was taking place a few years ago in the US, the topic wouldve been the "massively overpriced and under-delivering F-22"... and that thing went on to become the #1 air superiority jet fighter in the world.
Im gonna go ahead and place bets on Lockheed Martin and their incredible wealth of knowledge and experience in delivering top notch military equipment in tbe end. Yeah its gonna be pricey, but its gonna kick ass... just like that other plane we CANT buy.
I also thoroughly enjoy the fact that his arguments base around lack of public support for the F35, as if the US has ever fumbled such a large development in the end. The F22 was exactly the same story, and the F15 before it, and countless other military weapons developments. If you can count on our neighbours to do just one thing right, its to build amazing military equipment.
If this conversation was taking place a few years ago in the US, the topic wouldve been the "massively overpriced and under-delivering F-22"... and that thing went on to become the #1 air superiority jet fighter in the world.
Im gonna go ahead and place bets on Lockheed Martin and their incredible wealth of knowledge and experience in delivering top notch military equipment in tbe end. Yeah its gonna be pricey, but its gonna kick ass... just like that other plane we CANT buy.
I wouldn't be so sure about the F-22 being the #1. To date it has yet to fly a combat mission and has been grounded multiple times for issues that they haven't been able to solve. In fact there have been enough serious issues with it that the US is unwilling to allow them into a combat role.
See these articles and some of the links in them.
http://gizmodo.com/5897951/f+22-failure-investigation-results-we-have-no-clue
http://gizmodo.com/5868405/buyers-remorse-how-much-has-the-f+22-really-cost
Couple things is for certain and you are right dude....price will exceed expectations...never know the crazy price of shoe strings in coming years. Some of the gadgets will have glitches I'm positive. BUT ...it will be somethin else to behold and fly. Ya Harpo will be lambasted by the libndp party but they all take a beating for stuff like this. Get on the boat now or be left behind.
That's another issue, it pretty much doesn't have a role since there aren't exactly a lot of dogfights in any recent/current conflicts. The problem is that even if there was a need, it currently would not be allowed to fulfill it. With pilots blacking out for as yet unknown reasons and artificial flight ceilings being forced due to unresolved problems with critical systems, the F-22 is essentially a really expensive runway decoration and airshow demonstrator.
given that one of the few sources you used in this thread was a straight copy from their website, i'm not surprised that you are betting on lockheed martin--they apparently are your go-to source for definitive info, lol. . .
still trying to sell the lie that it's a lack of public support for the f35 that is in question? i guess in your world the usaf and the department of defense backing away from the project is 'public support'. . .fail.
and as for whether "the US has ever fumbled such a large development in the end". . .
lessee, here. . .
a multi-role supersonic aircraft, using the latest design and technology, slated with versions for both the air force and the navy. . .
massive tech issues, design flaws, way over budget and huge delays. . .
am i talking about the f35/jsf?
nope.
f-111. . .so many blunders that only the air force version ever got made. it eventually did okay in the f-111f variant, but the navy? not so much. they had to give up that one entirely.
you know, i'm not sure whether to be flattered that you have this man crush on me, or creeped out that you are taking cyberstalking to the next level.
i'm actually thinking more of the latter.
do yourself a favour and delete that post before people realize how much of a creeper you are/have become.
wow.
for the record, i'll save you the google search:
my last vehicles have been a 2011 optima lx (stick), a 2010 hyundai santa fe sport (tiptronic), a 2007 camry se (stick), and a 2002 miata (stick).
any other disturbing off-topic directions that you might want to go in, i'm not going to indulge you. . .sorry
my last vehicles have been a 2011 optima lx (stick), a 2010 hyundai santa fe sport (tiptronic), a 2007 camry se (stick), and a 2002 miata (stick).
any other disturbing off-topic directions that you might want to go in, i'm not going to indulge you. . .sorry
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Don't know what to make of this as it's very good at saying nothing....
Other than this (dated 3 April) there isn't anything jumping out at me right now.
The Government of Canada is taking the following seven steps to fulfill and exceed the Auditor General’s recommendation:
Canada remains committed to ensuring that the Royal Canadian Air Force has the aircraft it needs to do the jobs we ask of them.
Ministerial Quotes
“Canada has not signed a contract to purchase any aircraft. As we have stated, Canada has set a budget to purchase fighter aircraft to replace the CF-18 and will acquire the F-35 only if and when we can operate within that budget,” said Minister Fantino.
"Funding will remain frozen and Canada will not purchase new aircraft until further due diligence, oversight, and transparency is applied to the process of replacing the Canadian Forces' aging CF-18 fleet," said Minister Ambrose.
"This comprehensive response to the 2012 Spring Report of the Auditor General of Canada once again re-affirms our Government’s ongoing commitment to supporting our brave men and women of the Canadian Forces and exercising responsible stewardship of taxpayers' hard-earned dollars,” said Minister MacKay.
“Since 1997, Canada has worked with our allies in a unique multinational program to develop and manufacture the F-35. Our participation has generated $435 million in contracts for 70 Canadian companies resulting in skilled work that otherwise would not exist, with more opportunities to come,” said Minister Paradis.
Other than this (dated 3 April) there isn't anything jumping out at me right now.
The Government of Canada is taking the following seven steps to fulfill and exceed the Auditor General’s recommendation:
- The funding envelope allocated for the acquisition of the F-35 will be frozen.
- The Government of Canada will immediately establish a new F-35 Secretariat within the Department of Public Works and Government Services Canada. The Secretariat will play the lead coordinating role as the Government moves to replace Canada’s CF-18 fleet. A committee of Deputy Ministers will be established to provide oversight of the F-35 Secretariat.
- The Department of National Defence, through the F-35 Secretariat, will provide annual updates to Parliament. These updates will be tabled within a maximum of 60 days from receipt of annual costing forecasts from the Joint Strike Fighter program office, beginning in 2012. The Department of National Defence will also provide technical briefings as needed through the F-35 Secretariat on the performance schedule and costs.
- The Department of National Defence will continue to evaluate options to sustain a Canadian Forces fighter capability well into the 21st century.
- Prior to project approval, Treasury Board Secretariat will first commission an independent review of DND's acquisition and sustainment project assumptions and potential costs for the F-35, which will be made public.
- Treasury Board Secretariat will also review the acquisition and sustainment costs of the F-35 and ensure full compliance with procurement policies prior to approving the project.
- Industry Canada, through the F-35 Secretariat, will continue identifying opportunities for Canadian Industry to participate in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter global supply chain, as well as other potential benefits for Canada in sustainment, testing, and training, and will provide updates to Parliament explaining the benefits.
Canada remains committed to ensuring that the Royal Canadian Air Force has the aircraft it needs to do the jobs we ask of them.
Ministerial Quotes
“Canada has not signed a contract to purchase any aircraft. As we have stated, Canada has set a budget to purchase fighter aircraft to replace the CF-18 and will acquire the F-35 only if and when we can operate within that budget,” said Minister Fantino.
"Funding will remain frozen and Canada will not purchase new aircraft until further due diligence, oversight, and transparency is applied to the process of replacing the Canadian Forces' aging CF-18 fleet," said Minister Ambrose.
"This comprehensive response to the 2012 Spring Report of the Auditor General of Canada once again re-affirms our Government’s ongoing commitment to supporting our brave men and women of the Canadian Forces and exercising responsible stewardship of taxpayers' hard-earned dollars,” said Minister MacKay.
“Since 1997, Canada has worked with our allies in a unique multinational program to develop and manufacture the F-35. Our participation has generated $435 million in contracts for 70 Canadian companies resulting in skilled work that otherwise would not exist, with more opportunities to come,” said Minister Paradis.
yeah, most of this has been public for awhile, hence my comment awhile ago about how it wasn't a good idea to get cost certainty by freezing the cost, so we end up with only 40 f35s or whatever. we need a cf18 replacement, and we need it to be in numbers that make for an effective force.
and of course, who knows if 65 is the right number for that. . .that's why we need the due diligence that we didn't get before.
lots of other countries have already cut their orders, so maybe it's time to investigate splitting the money between f35s and maybe super hornets or silent eagles to get us some greater force flexibility.
and of course, who knows if 65 is the right number for that. . .that's why we need the due diligence that we didn't get before.
lots of other countries have already cut their orders, so maybe it's time to investigate splitting the money between f35s and maybe super hornets or silent eagles to get us some greater force flexibility.
The future is in drones dude. The US just passed the bill that will allow 30 000 Drones in US airspace in the upcoming years.
Preds and Reapers
Quite a few AF people have said GEN 5 fighters are the beginning of the end....
General Atomics has put it's Avenger over Afghanistan ahead of estimated date.
Preds and Reapers
Quite a few AF people have said GEN 5 fighters are the beginning of the end....
General Atomics has put it's Avenger over Afghanistan ahead of estimated date.
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Seen this in passing today...
Dr. Richard Bitzinger, defence specialist at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore says...
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/18/f-35-will-be-far-ahead-of-stealth-rivals-experts
Dr. Richard Bitzinger, defence specialist at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore says...
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/18/f-35-will-be-far-ahead-of-stealth-rivals-experts
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