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From the LGR poll...

1. Is there an option (purchase) to the F35?

I'm not clear on the role so if someone could define it, we could set the requirement.

2. Who is Canada threatened by?

a. in conflict (invasion attack)

b. challenges to land rights (incl waterways and coastal)

c. challenges to resource rights (incl fish, oil)

3. Does air power at the moment seem like the most logical place to spend?

Would you buy troops, tanks, boats, helicopters or planes?

The "should we spend or it's a shill" is welcome but this is seen from the side that we do vs. do not.)


If the airframes are used well during their lifetime they can save us the cost of putting large numbers of troops (billions per 6 month roto) but their rising cost weight that out over their "30" expectancy.

This seems like the best case for their use. we send a wing of them into theater and get cred for our missions. Small crew to ship overseas vs 2-3K troops.

Good to be bringing to the UN when they point us at our next peacekeeping/making task.

Is there going to be any other use for them than that?

Or, if not, and they just sit around..... are we being retro cold war paranoid?
 
I honestly don't know who Canada wants to defend us from?
You cannot use jets to defend people from real or imaginary terrorists.
Other countires, which have big fire power wouldn't care if Canada had 30-35 jets (lets say, USA or China) if they wanted to invade us.
To Canada, loss of one or two of these jets will mean the end of war due to economic reasons.
 
ViperZ said:
I honestly don't know who Canada wants to defend us from?
You cannot use jets to defend people from real or imaginary terrorists.
Other countires, which have big fire power wouldn't care if Canada had 30-35 jets (lets say, USA or China) if they wanted to invade us.
To Canada, loss of one or two of these jets will mean the end of war due to economic reasons.
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It's not entirely about war-time and firepower..
 
invictus43 said:
It's not entirely about war-time and firepower..
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Enlighten me what is it about then? Bigger deficit? Because I don't see a single valid reason for Canada in this purchase. If they really wanted to buy some new toys, maybe this country should invest into the replacement rescue helicopters?
 
It's about deterrence. It's also about upholding our NORAD obligations. It's also about pulling our weight so that we're not reliant on the US providing all the firepower to defend our northern borders should the need arise. If our presence isn't up there, then the territory is already lost.

The Russians have been probing our airspace since 1997. The Chinese also want a piece of the pie. If we don't contribute our share to the defense of that territory, and the US is left doing all the work... then whose land is it really?
 
mmmnaked said:
It's about deterrence. It's also about upholding our NORAD obligations. It's also about pulling our weight so that we're not reliant on the US providing all the firepower to defend our northern borders should the need arise. If our presence isn't up there, then the territory is already lost.

all his posts are serious. internet is serious business.
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mmmnaked said:
It's about deterrence. It's also about upholding our NORAD obligations. It's also about pulling our weight so that we're not reliant on the US providing all the firepower to defend our northern borders should the need arise. If our presence isn't up there, then the territory is already lost.

The Russians have been probing our airspace since 1997. The Chinese also want a piece of the pie. If we don't contribute our share to the defense of that territory, and the US is left doing all the work... then whose land is it really?
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Seriously, who are you kidding? If any of these countries - Russia, USA, China - were to attack Canada, nothing would stop them, except for the other two out of those three. What defense are you you talking about if this country completely depends on the United States for its defences? Do you really think increasing a huge country deficit by adding a couple dozen fighter jets will help Canada defend itself from the invasion? I can only imagine Harper going to some summit and trying to pull "our weight" by telling the leaders of big countries that "hey, men, we have 35 F-35s"! They will die laughing! Russia SELLS more jets like that every year to countries like China, India, Siria, whatever.
Some people here still live in the "cold war" mode. Even if military were still to rule the world, it's the nuclear arsenal, not jets and tanks. And even if you do believe that those jets can even deter, say Russians, from entering Canada's space, what are they going to do with Russian nuclear submarines? Use the three half-sunk UK-decommissioned diesel subs to "pull the weight"? Those subs will sink before they'll leave the harbour. To replace those subs, this country will have to shell another several billion dollars. And will that help? LOL
This country should be strengthening its economy, its economic relations with other countries, not its non-existent army. Canada's army, with all due respect, can only be used as a part of UN peace forces, but it's nowhere big or strong enough to deter any kind of the outside invasion or 'pull our weights' at the summits. Don't take me wrong, I really respect what our soldiers do in the world, but again, this contract army was not build to defend Canada.
 
ViperZ said:
Seriously, who are you kidding? If any of these countries - Russia, USA, China - were to attack Canada, nothing would stop them, except for the other two out of those three. What defense are you you talking about if this country completely depends on the United States for its defences? Do you really think increasing a huge country deficit by adding a couple dozen fighter jets will help Canada defend itself from the invasion? I can only imagine Harper going to some summit and trying to pull "our weight" by telling the leaders of big countries that "hey, men, we have 35 F-35s"! They will die laughing! Russia SELLS more jets like that every year to countries like China, India, Siria, whatever.
Some people here still live in the "cold war" mode. Even if military were still to rule the world, it's the nuclear arsenal, not jets and tanks. And even if you do believe that those jets can even deter, say Russians, from entering Canada's space, what are they going to do with Russian nuclear submarines? Use the three half-sunk UK-decommissioned diesel subs to "pull the weight"? Those subs will sink before they'll leave the harbour. To replace those subs, this country will have to shell another several billion dollars. And will that help? LOL
This country should be strengthening its economy, its economic relations with other countries, not its non-existent army. Canada's army, with all due respect, can only be used as a part of UN peace forces, but it's nowhere big or strong enough to deter any kind of the outside invasion or 'pull our weights' at the summits. Don't take me wrong, I really respect what our soldiers do in the world, but again, this contract army was not build to defend Canada.
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+1 on this. I was going to type up something similar to your piece of literature.. only problem. This is an an internet forum and our politicians don't give a ****.
 
Countries like Poland and France didn't put too much effort to defend themselves during WW II. Look what happened to them.

I cherish my freedom and beliefs and would like them defend, thank you!
 
Why don't you go back and carefully re-read my post Viper. The US wouldn't attack us for that territory, that's asinine. We protect the entire continent in conjunction with our allies through NORAD. If we no longer have equipment which can fulfill our NORAD obligations, then we're no longer relevant. And if we aren't pulling our weight, then the US is doing all the work and they'll simply 'squat' their way into the territories. How in the world could it be considered "Canada" if it's patrolled and protected entirely by the USA?

Don't be such hippie simpletons. The next few decades will witness a heavy surge towards Arctic exploration and EVERYBODY wants a piece of the pie. Our best and ONLY chance is continued protection with our biggest and closest allies. Part of swallowing that pill is the purchase of these F-35s.
 
i don't get why ppl put it as us "defending" ourselves from the US. I think about it as paying my share of the bill at dinner.

in this country and many others we expect peopel to pay their fair share of taxes, we have civic duties to society and democracy. We also have duties to our allies, and yes we have to furfill them unless you want to just be the 51st state. ( in which case we are deinfately paying for the US military)
 
mmmnaked said:
Why don't you go back and carefully re-read my post Viper. The US wouldn't attack us for that territory, that's asinine. We protect the entire continent in conjunction with our allies through NORAD. If we no longer have equipment which can fulfill our NORAD obligations, then we're no longer relevant. And if we aren't pulling our weight, then the US is doing all the work and they'll simply 'squat' their way into the territories. How in the world could it be considered "Canada" if it's patrolled and protected entirely by the USA?

Don't be such hippie simpletons. The next few decades will witness a heavy surge towards Arctic exploration and EVERYBODY wants a piece of the pie. Our best and ONLY chance is continued protection with our biggest and closest allies. Part of swallowing that pill is the purchase of these F-35s.
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Well, I guess, you haven't read my post at all. If you still live in your cold war times, then good luck with your beliefs. And btw, I'd really be interested where Canada will get tens of billions of dollars to strengthen their army up to your beliefs to protect its northern border. Yes, lets put our country even more into debt by 'swallowing that pill' and *start* building our army with those F-35s, which btw, already cost us, taxpayers, 10 BILLION OVER planned purchase price. On the other hand, every single major infrastructure, at least in this province is crumbling - be it energy, transporation or health. And please don't tell me that it's not a federal matter to maintain cross-country transporation or health of its citizens. Good luck with your war machine. I expressed my opionion and I believe you did express yours.
 
ViperZ said:
Well, I guess, you haven't read my post at all. If you still live in your cold war times, then good luck with your beliefs. And btw, I'd really be interested where Canada will get tens of billions of dollars to strengthen their army up to your beliefs to protect its northern border. Yes, lets put our country even more into debt by 'swallowing that pill' and *start* building our army with those F-35s, which btw, already cost us, taxpayers, 10 BILLION OVER planned purchase price. On the other hand, every single major infrastructure, at least in this province is crumbling - be it energy, transporation or health. And please don't tell me that it's not a federal matter to maintain cross-country transporation or health of its citizens. Good luck with your war machine. I expressed my opionion and I believe you did express yours.
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Like mnaked was saying, this is about NORAD, United Nations, and our own borders. Did you know that Canada's Snow Birds are known as the best pilots in the world ?. What good is the best pilot if they are flying jets from the Viet Nam era. Did you know it cost almost as much to upkeep the old F/A-18's with parts and maintenance then it does to actually just purchase new jets that should and will last another 30 or so years ?. Canada is a peace keeping nation, and that's what we are known and loved for, however you still need firepower in order to protect that image. As for Russia, China, or whatever attacking Canada, would never happen. The problem with those countries is not manpower, it's transportation. They have nothing to actually get over to Canada with to do anything, Russia's Navy was been in a state of collapse ever since the breakup of the Soviet Union, and although China has a decent sized submarine fleet, you can't carry millions of people on a Nuclear Submarine. They lack troop transports to do anything serious at all. Air Superiority is where it's at, and it is the best way for Canada to help the rest of the world with our own obligations. I feel much more confident living in Canada knowing we have the best pilots and state of the art jets protecting our air space, instead of just hoping no one wants to send an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile our way. What would you like to see the tax money spent on ?. If not helping and protecting our soldiers who appreciate it, I'd just see it squandered away at some other ******** reason.
 
Dr.Manhattan said:
Like mnaked was saying, this is about NORAD, United Nations, and our own borders. Did you know that Canada's Snow Birds are known as the best pilots in the world ?. What good is the best pilot if they are flying jets from the Viet Nam era. Did you know it cost almost as much to upkeep the old F/A-18's with parts and maintenance then it does to actually just purchase new jets that should and will last another 30 or so years ?. Canada is a peace keeping nation, and that's what we are known and loved for, however you still need firepower in order to protect that image. As for Russia, China, or whatever attacking Canada, would never happen. The problem with those countries is not manpower, it's transportation. They have nothing to actually get over to Canada with to do anything, Russia's Navy was been in a state of collapse ever since the breakup of the Soviet Union, and although China has a decent sized submarine fleet, you can't carry millions of people on a Nuclear Submarine. They lack troop transports to do anything serious at all. Air Superiority is where it's at, and it is the best way for Canada to help the rest of the world with our own obligations. I feel much more confident living in Canada knowing we have the best pilots and state of the art jets protecting our air space, instead of just hoping no one wants to send an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile our way. What would you like to see the tax money spent on ?. If not helping and protecting our soldiers who appreciate it, I'd just see it squandered away at some other ******** reason.
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Like I already said, I expressed my opinion, and you people who still believe in cold war era type games, good luck!
 
SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

Oh wait, these jets are gonna cost less than one percent of our annual budget. :lol: THE SKY IS FALLING


Its not about cold war mentality, it's about our obligations to our allies. Why would the USA protect our territory if we aren't also pulling our weight? Yeah, our military is pathetic compared to theirs, but we also have 1/10th the population. We are expected to throw in a proportional amount of help, and these F-35s will ensure that we're doing our part.
 
mmmnaked said:
SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

Oh wait, these jets are gonna cost less than one percent of our annual budget. :lol: THE SKY IS FALLING


Its not about cold war mentality, it's about our obligations to our allies. Why would the USA protect our territory if we aren't also pulling our weight? Yeah, our military is pathetic compared to theirs, but we also have 1/10th the population. We are expected to throw in a proportional amount of help, and these F-35s will ensure that we're doing our part.
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Duuuude, war is so 80's. Peace.
 
Peace... through superior firepower :lol:
 
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