COVID and the housing market

If you borrow from Peter to pay Paul you still owe Peter. Borrowing from family is touchy.

I know someone who was moving from a house to a seniors apartment, expecting to cash out and buy a new car with the proceeds. They wrecked their car during the move-out and the settlement was minimal, only giving them about six months rental.

A friend loaned them the money to buy a new vehicle $40K?? to be repaid upon sale of the house. The house has been sitting for ten months with little interest. Tax, insurance and heat for the house is ~$1,000 a month. Price has been dropped 20% and no action.

If I was the lender I would be extremely annoyed, expecting a faster return.

What if you lent someone $100K as a bail out and things got worse?

Using the Parliament condo as an example, If a person was using the pre-build buy to move up and got caught in this melt down what if it unfolds again further down the line.

1) Write off the $100K deposit

2) Sell the condo at a $200K loss

3) Borrow $200K from dad to avoid bankruptcy and losing the existing home.

Surprise

A year later the market is still in chaos and the mortgage on the original home comes due. Values are down and rates up. Dad, can I borrow another $100K? The bank won't talk to me. I you don't I'll never be able to pay you back the $100K.

The family is out $400K with no rescue in sight.

Dad had to take the $300K out of his RRSPs so owes CRA $300K.

Dad decides to sell the cottage in a down market to refinance the mess and gets hit with cap gains.

Other siblings are Pi***d over the decline in the estate.

Sometimes bankruptcy isn't all bad.
If dad pulled from rrsp, the family is already screwed as they act without knowledge. It's hard to give up more to cra than an rrsp pull while employed. There are far more tax efficient ways of accessing money.

In your example, tax bill would be 150k max but that still a big issue if you have nothing left to pull from. A spiral of rrsp withdrawals to pay cra who then want more so you need to withdraw again. Rinse and repeat until cra is rich and you are poor.
 
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You'd need to be an idiot to pull RRSP money to finance a family F up , if you didnt have access to cash , or even a LOC on a temp basis , but the probelm with the LOC, its not your money either so it needs to be repaid. Our family process has always been , if you want to play Baller, you better have a game. Dont put money into an investment that you cannot afford to loose. And that would include speculation on real estate.
Hope is not a business plan.
 
I am downtown and houses are still moving - I have 4 houses being built on my street right now. Bungalows being sold for $1M - $1.2M and being town down for new builds. Once you get into North Burlington (Milcroft and Alton Village) it looks more like Milton South than Burlington North. Traffic (lots of traffic), ubiquitous strip malls and utter lack of character.

People are willing to pay a premium to live downtown Burlington and Oakville - one can walk to all the festivals, restaurants, pubs and all events without having to worry about parking.
There will always be neighborhoods that buck the trend. Downtown in many areas, like Burlington, have no room for new builds and high demand so prices have held better. Same goes for single-family places in the core of places like Thornhill, Pickering, and Toronto, Sis has a cute little place in LaSalle -- local realtors just pegged the place <$1M, that's $100K less than 2022.
 
Pulling an RRSP is not the way to go.......total last resort. he is going to be split roasted between the Bank and the CRA
Agreed. If you need access to RRSP equity, borrow against it. You might still lose in the log run if you don't get repaid-- but you don't eat a guaranteed loss today.
 
There will always be neighborhoods that buck the trend. Downtown in many areas, like Burlington, have no room for new builds and high demand so prices have held better. Same goes for single-family places in the core of places like Thornhill, Pickering, and Toronto, Sis has a cute little place in LaSalle -- local realtors just pegged the place <$1M, that's $100K less than 2022.
LaSalle Ontario or LaSalle Quebec?
 
I am downtown and houses are still moving - I have 4 houses being built on my street right now. Bungalows being sold for $1M - $1.2M and being town down for new builds. Once you get into North Burlington (Milcroft and Alton Village) it looks more like Milton South than Burlington North. Traffic (lots of traffic), ubiquitous strip malls and utter lack of character.

People are willing to pay a premium to live downtown Burlington and Oakville - one can walk to all the festivals, restaurants, pubs and all events without having to worry about parking.
This surprised me, and having a look at HouseSigma, the numbers are interesting. On a simple median price level, YOY numbers for November in downtown Burlington are down -8.9% to a median of $1,179,500. On the surface, this compares well with a nicer lower city neighbourhood in Hamilton that's down -11.6% from 2024 to $693,750. Where it gets interesting is comparing the 5-yr change, with Hamilton area sitting at +61% vs the Burlington hood at +15%. The 10-yr numbers are a little closer, with Hamilton at +123% and Burlington at +81%, which says to me that Burlington didn't see anywhere near the Covid bump that Hamilton did. Both went up steadily pre-Covid, but during Covid, Hamilton went off like a rocket while (downtown and downtown adjacent) Burlington stayed relatively flat.

Like most real estate data, it can be spun multiple ways and can be hard to draw any clear-cut conclusions. Just thought it made for an interesting comparison to two very different but nearby destinations for refugees from Toronto proper. I think St Catharines is still ahead of both for 10-yr gains...
 
This surprised me, and having a look at HouseSigma, the numbers are interesting. On a simple median price level, YOY numbers for November in downtown Burlington are down -8.9% to a median of $1,179,500. On the surface, this compares well with a nicer lower city neighbourhood in Hamilton that's down -11.6% from 2024 to $693,750. Where it gets interesting is comparing the 5-yr change, with Hamilton area sitting at +61% vs the Burlington hood at +15%. The 10-yr numbers are a little closer, with Hamilton at +123% and Burlington at +81%, which says to me that Burlington didn't see anywhere near the Covid bump that Hamilton did. Both went up steadily pre-Covid, but during Covid, Hamilton went off like a rocket while (downtown and downtown adjacent) Burlington stayed relatively flat.

Like most real estate data, it can be spun multiple ways and can be hard to draw any clear-cut conclusions. Just thought it made for an interesting comparison to two very different but nearby destinations for refugees from Toronto proper. I think St Catharines is still ahead of both for 10-yr gains...
I think the bump in a lot of rougher centers comes from the impact of gentrification.

When you take a community of older homes that havent been well maintained for decades, refurbing a house can double it's value. Say a direlect house off sells for $250K in 2020, then $500K a year later after being reno'd. That $250K home disappears from the market forever which dramatically raises the price for the local neighbourhood. That happened a lot in older Hamilton, and a lot less in more affluent Burlington where homes weren't neglected for decades.

Another thing that happens when a community is gentrified is demand increases because the fresh renos are usually still a relative bargain. As demand increases, supply drops and prices rise further. If demand persists, as it has in Hamilton, prices dont stop rising until they reach the price of a new build, which today runs about $300/sq' + land.
 
I think the bump in a lot of rougher centers comes from the impact of gentrification.

When you take a community of older homes that havent been well maintained for decades, refurbing a house can double it's value. Say a direlect house off sells for $250K in 2020, then $500K a year later after being reno'd. That $250K home disappears from the market forever which dramatically raises the price for the local neighbourhood. That happened a lot in older Hamilton, and a lot less in more affluent Burlington where homes weren't neglected for decades.

Another thing that happens when a community is gentrified is demand increases because the fresh renos are usually still a relative bargain. As demand increases, supply drops and prices rise further. If demand persists, as it has in Hamilton, prices dont stop rising until they reach the price of a new build, which today runs about $300/sq' + land.
Also from a pure affordability standpoint, people need a place to live and for a long time cities like Hamilton and Peterborough offered that at a much lower entry point. 15 years ago, barrie was in that cheap group too but it jumped on the rocket a few years earlier than the others.
 
It’s difficult to look at downtown Burlington and Oakville objectively, you have the historic homes that get a good price but demand a different audience. The older houses that get demolished so a powerhouse can now sit on the lot send the prices up . And they both have excellent liveability. I’m in Bronte which for fifty yrs was where you went if you could not afford Oakville, now it’s flipped and this is a boutique area . Sections of Toronto proper are the same . Want to live in Hamilton in an historic house off Aberdeen ? You’d best bring a bag of cash. The biggest thing in common is the listing are all lasting a bit longer and the prices are all off a bit from three yrs ago.


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I think the bump in a lot of rougher centers comes from the impact of gentrification.
Agreed on gentrification for some areas and affecting numbers for Hamilton as a whole, but the bits of Hamilton I was looking at the numbers on haven't been gentrified much, they were never run down (or had been un-run-down long before Covid). Areas like Kirkendall North (South is where some of the prettiest mansions in the country sit, definitely an outlier for the city), Blakeley and The Delta. If gentrification happened, it was changes to the commercial strips servicing those areas, like Locke and Ottawa.

I think it's more about changing perceptions, both for commutability and what some people are looking for in a neighbourhood. The vast majority of people moving near us in Delta West are downtown Torontonians looking for a similar urban feel but just... a bit less intense and a lot cheaper. Lots of ex-condo dwellers, renters who bought but couldn't afford Toronto, families looking for more space, etc. They're also looking for a sense of place and neighbourhood character that's impossible to find in newer cities with their subdivision/arterial hub design model, and back yard and a garage over front yard and a driveway architecture.

I think for these areas it's less about gentrification and more about having been undervalued and the value correcting. Of course, the bigger the needle swings, the bigger it swings back to find equilibrium. Lots of parts of Hamilton are down 25, even 30% from the peaks of Covid craziness, but considering they went up twice that from 2020 to 2022, it was a heck of a rollercoaster. From what I can guess from the numbers, places like Burlington, being out of the reach of more people to begin with, were insulated somewhat from those huge demand spikes and resulting corrections.

The biggest thing in common is the listing are all lasting a bit longer and the prices are all off a bit from three yrs ago.
100% agreed, but I don't think we're done yet. For family housing, things seem to have stabilisied somewhat. But the next big shift is the contracting population from emigration over the past year, which is having a huge effect on the rental market. YOY numbers are pretty stark. Not sure how accurate this graph is, but it passes my eye test for what 'feels' like is happening, which is hitting the rental market:

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I'm actually seeing 'For Rent' signs up in front of apartment buildings for probably the first time in well over a decade. It has gone from seeing a few through the summer to seeing them everywhere now. Pretty much every apartment block I pass has one now. Vacancy rates around Mohawk have more than doubled since last year, and that's only growing.

This is largely good news for anyone except landlords, as it should go a long way to addressing the homelessness spike that we've all seen in the past few years. How it impacts the housing market, both for condos and smaller rental houses, time will tell. I have to expect there will be quite a few second properties on the market as the math flips upside down and the property value gains aren't enough to justify the monthly losses.
 
Both a mortgage broker and a real estate lady at last nights party , in passing party convos , real estate lady ( specializing in GlenAbbey Oakville area) says prices are off and sales take longer , mortgage lady says rewrites and people shopping to get out of situations is very popular . So pretty much what we all typed lol .


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This surprised me, and having a look at HouseSigma, the numbers are interesting. On a simple median price level, YOY numbers for November in downtown Burlington are down -8.9% to a median of $1,179,500. On the surface, this compares well with a nicer lower city neighbourhood in Hamilton that's down -11.6% from 2024 to $693,750. Where it gets interesting is comparing the 5-yr change, with Hamilton area sitting at +61% vs the Burlington hood at +15%. The 10-yr numbers are a little closer, with Hamilton at +123% and Burlington at +81%, which says to me that Burlington didn't see anywhere near the Covid bump that Hamilton did. Both went up steadily pre-Covid, but during Covid, Hamilton went off like a rocket while (downtown and downtown adjacent) Burlington stayed relatively flat.

Like most real estate data, it can be spun multiple ways and can be hard to draw any clear-cut conclusions. Just thought it made for an interesting comparison to two very different but nearby destinations for refugees from Toronto proper. I think St Catharines is still ahead of both for 10-yr gains...
Ugly part of the mess. A case study vs statistics.

A young couple bought a starter house, the cheapest on the street, in Hamilton for $660K in 2021. No conditions or inspection. That was 15% over listing. Mortgages were ~ 2.9% fixed. Assuming they put in all their savings for a 10% down they would have been carrying a ~$600K mortgage.

Fast forward 4-1/2 years, similar homes are going for $500K and sitting for months.

If a bank wants a potential equity of 90%, $450K to renew the mortgage, $150K has to appear. Today, their buy in of $660K gets you one of the nicest houses on the street.

The couple appear to be out ~$160K, maybe more considering the higher interest rate.

Situation ugly unless they paid down their mortgage $150K or dad has a thick wallet, as I posted before.
 
Ugly part of the mess. A case study vs statistics.

A young couple bought a starter house, the cheapest on the street, in Hamilton for $660K in 2021. No conditions or inspection. That was 15% over listing. Mortgages were ~ 2.9% fixed. Assuming they put in all their savings for a 10% down they would have been carrying a ~$600K mortgage.

Fast forward 4-1/2 years, similar homes are going for $500K and sitting for months.

If a bank wants a potential equity of 90%, $450K to renew the mortgage, $150K has to appear. Today, their buy in of $660K gets you one of the nicest houses on the street.

The couple appear to be out ~$160K, maybe more considering the higher interest rate.

Situation ugly unless they paid down their mortgage $150K or dad has a thick wallet, as I posted before.
Something strange there. I've never heard of a conventional bank increasing capital requirement on a renewal. Assuming payments are being made, bank is safer to let them renew and spread the pain over time.
 
Ugly part of the mess. A case study vs statistics.

A young couple bought a starter house, the cheapest on the street, in Hamilton for $660K in 2021. No conditions or inspection. That was 15% over listing. Mortgages were ~ 2.9% fixed. Assuming they put in all their savings for a 10% down they would have been carrying a ~$600K mortgage.

Fast forward 4-1/2 years, similar homes are going for $500K and sitting for months.

If a bank wants a potential equity of 90%, $450K to renew the mortgage, $150K has to appear. Today, their buy in of $660K gets you one of the nicest houses on the street.

The couple appear to be out ~$160K, maybe more considering the higher interest rate.

Situation ugly unless they paid down their mortgage $150K or dad has a thick wallet, as I posted before.

Is that an actual ‘case study’ or a possible scenario?
Cash calls to maintain LTV are very rare.
 
Is that an actual ‘case study’ or a possible scenario?
Cash calls to maintain LTV are very rare.
Edge cases like expiring private loans, refinance or change of lender could trigger that call but I would be shocked if it was a straight renewal at the existing lender and they made that call.
 
Unless someone had been really stupid , mortgage plus two car loans and a LOC , banks will extend to keep the cash rolling . They do not want to be in the real estate business and they don’t want to write down a loosing property, they will let you keep making payment until it’s crystal clear you’re missing them.


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Unless someone had been really stupid , mortgage plus two car loans and a LOC , banks will extend to keep the cash rolling . They do not want to be in the real estate business and they don’t want to write down a loosing property, they will let you keep making payment until it’s crystal clear you’re missing them.


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Yes and no. Friends of ours were literally at the limit of their LOC / HELOC as everything was maxed out.

New BMW, 2 investment properties, 100k Reno for a rental apartment, multiple vacations.

They got scared when bank called them to come in for a meeting about their LOC.

Bank opened up an additional 220k in LOC!

Next thing you know it’s time for another vacation!
 
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