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2022 MotoGP Discussion (No Links - Contains Spoilers!)
- Thread starter Chaos
- Start date
Winales_2017
Well-known member
It has been interesting, but I'm struggling to stay up for the races again... I fear that without Marc this is just another season where the racing is definitely worth watching, but only on replay rather than live as the same excitement isn't there any more.
I really hope Marc recovers and takes as much time as he needs this time to get healthy: but I fear that while the racing is more diverse in terms of GP riders on the podium etc... but ever since Marc got injured it's simply not as exciting without him making everyone ride on edge while he defied gravity and physics on that violent HRC and making everyone wonder how he does it. He made riders either push themselves to get better (Dovi is the best example of this) or simply made them look like amatuer club racers, and that is what this sport needs: Rossi proved that most people watching were more into idolizing a celebrity than they were the racing and that needs to be counter-acted with a force of nature like Marc.
Mir and Rins got pretty close to the 2 leaders today, and luckily Rins kept it on 2 wheels this time, but I think that if Mir saw Marc leading up front he'd have pushed harder to make it past that group and challenge him instead of settling for the points. The Media makes Marc and Mir out to be enemies because they need the click bait for ads or to sell their ads in their rags, but the reality is that Mir really respects Marc and wants to go head-to-head with him more than just about any other rider.
You saw this clearly in one of the Amazon documentary eps when the Media tried spinning stuff to make it sound like he was belittling him for drafting/getting a tow and Mir went to both HRC and Marc to clarify things and explained what he said and they'd have a drink tomorrow in order to put things in the past and laugh it off--possibly suggesting they'd both be on the podium on Sunday. Or, alternatively, that they'd both be fighting for position in the race. Either way, what I see is Mir's respect for what I think everyone on that grid knows is an exceptional, once in a lifetime, type of person that defines (or redefines?) a sport entirely. And being the ambitious people that they are they want to beat him at his best.
Marc will never be the commercial success Vale was, that much is certain, but I think that even if he doesn't match his title count I think his legacy is perhaps the most definitive of all the modern era riders. I can't see Marc languishing in the back just to satisfy some egotistical relevance in order to 'build a brand,' his ambition and his talents are optimized for one thing: winning.
Nothing else matters to him, and sadly as we have seen even his own health won't matter in this pursuit. It's admirable, but also short-lived.
Anyhow, congrats to Aprillia and Aleix, it must be crazy what that camp must feel like right now after all that delayed gratification; hopefully this makes Mav get into the right headspace heading into Europe so he can get back to winning ways as this once again proves that the problem isn't bike but him as a rider.
I really think we are going to see a reversion of the mean after Austin, assuming Marc shows up. Ducati have the best bike again this year by quite a large margin as HRC, Yamaha and to a lesser extent Suzuki haven't made enough progress to rival the brute power that red bike has over the entire field.
Ducati riders are just as inconsistent as they are plentiful on the grid.
Jorge needs to be brought up to the official team if he stays healthy and more consistent this year, I don't think either Pecco or Miller are doing a good job with that package or it's potential, but since Pecco is Italian I'm sure they're going to retain him over Miller. The stress caused by the logistics definitely didn't help Ducati, either, but its hard to think that bike under a capable rider like Martin wouldn't be leading the championship right now. I really wished we got to see what JLO could have done with one more year at Ducati, but his stint at HRC broke him mentally as well as physically that he had to quit and retire for good.
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Robbo
Well-known member
Another amazing race weekend. Great for all racing fans.
MotoGP has been unpredictable (9 different riders on the podium in 3 races).
We are seeing some good racing and top talent coming through moto2 and moto3.
I’m not missing 46 or 93.
Priller
Well-known member
Total opposite for me. I almost stopped watching when Marc was totally dominating, as admiring his skill wasn't enough to keep me watching 20+ laps of processional racing. To have the margins so narrow with such a variety of machinery is an amazing balance that took years to achieve. It's easy to fake close racing with strict rules that essentially force everyone to build the same bike, but to have v's and inlines, steel and aluminum and carbon chassis parts, a huge variety of aero, etc and so on is quite an accomplishment. I certainly don't need Marc to be interested, as I think the quality of rider on the grid from pole to back row is as high as it's ever been. It used to be possible to ride at 9/10ths if you had a good package, now everyone is 10/10ths from FP1 to the end of the race, only adjusting lap times depending on race or quali configuration.
While I'd dearly love to have a healthy Marc back, again, I disagree that it's necessary for the championship. If Mir or Dovi needed Marc to push them to win, then that's a failing in their mentality, especially as neither has been anywhere near dominant without him. Mir did win a championship, but only won a single race to get there. It's no less valid, but hardly a dominant performance
The series has changed (again), and it's not as ready-made for Marquez+Honda. For a while, the tires were a perfect match for Rossi's looser style. Then it was ideal for Lorenzo's inline approach with a steady but high tempo to maintain a very narrow temperature band. Then it worked for Marquez riding the front to the ragged edge on corner entry. Now, it's hard to say which style will dominate, as even Quartararo's sustained success through the middle of last year seems to be hard to recapture. Whether Marquez's recent struggles are a product of his age, of injuries, of Honda losing their way on the development side, or simply of his style no longer being ideal for the technology, it's impossible to say. It's obviously some combination of all of the above, though the ratios are hard to pin down.
If you can't stay on the bike, you can't win championships (see Schwantz, Kevin vs Rainey, Wayne). Marc isn't some random victim here. He's spent his career crashing and somehow bouncing back to win. That may be becoming an unsustainable model, and I'm increasingly pessimistic that he'll find a way to stay healthy and consistent. His catastrophic Indonesia weekend did not bode well. He simply couldn't find a way to make the bike work, and just kept throwing it away. I think Honda will eventually find some decent baseline settings (this is a vastly changed bike), and if Marc is healthy, he is the most likely rider to make that happen. But he got unequivocally beaten by Pol in Qatar, couldn't finish laps in Indonesia, and only has himself to blame. I think he'll be back winning races and possibly championships, but I sincerely hope the days of him having the championship sewn up by 2/3rds of the way through the year will never return.
(Also, your pro-Spanish/anti-Italian bias is showing again...
)If Rins can finish more races, he has a shot to beat Mir in the championship this year. They've both been very close to each other (I think next to each other in every race?), but Rins has come out ahead in two of three races, and perhaps shown a bit more patience to settle for places rather than crashing chasing a win. Rins is riding to stay in MotoGP, while Mir is mostly worried about whether to stay at Suzuki for next year, so that may be a factor.
Mir said what he said, regretted it, and went into damage control mode. He *did* belittle Marc for his desperate and egregious wheel sucking, and for good reason. But after the heat of the moment passed, he realised that there was nothing to be gained by starting a fight with Marc and worked very hard to walk what he said back. Miller's approach of making a joke about it was obviously more successful.
Nobody doubts how much everyone on the grid respects Marc. But that doesn't mean they didn't have a right to criticise him for his games in qualifying. It may be legal within the current rules, but we're seeing more and more dangerous stuff with riders loitering to get a tow, and Marc normalised that nonsense. Unless the riders cut it out, they will have to change the rules and nobody will like it. As the worst example, Marc has to bear the bulk of the blame.
Aprilia said at the start of the year that they didn't expect Vinales to be fully comfortable until mid-season, as the changes in riding style take time to really get into those last tenths and hundredths of a second that make the differences between 10th and the podium these days. There's an interesting interview with Rivola who seems a bit worried they won so early in the year, as it massively increases the pressure on the riders. If nothing else, he's definitely trying to temper expectations, likely to protect Vinales as much as anything.
At the beginning of the year, they targeted Qatar, Assen, Silverstone and Philip Island as their best chances. Tracks with fast, flowing sections and acceleration on the edge of the tire. Argentina would also seem to fit that mold, and they got a solid 4th in Qatar, so the predictions seem to be accurate to date.
I think the biggest problem for Aprilia (and Yamaha) will be if Honda, Suzuki and Ducati can find good baseline settings for their changed bikes in time for the European portion of the calendar...
The championship is usually won in Europe. Jerez/Mugello/Assen are typically the key rounds. The best news for everyone is also the worst news for everyone: nobody managed to build a meaningful lead in this early portion of the year, with everyone trading bad rounds. Even Bagnaia, who has to be easily the most disappointing of the true title favourites (Marc, Fabio, Mir, maybe Binder), is only 23 points behind Quartararo.
The factory team looks totally lost, and were affected more than most with the short weekend in Argentina. Perhaps a symptom of Dall'Igna taking development a bit too far, and trying too many things at once. Bagnaia has looked rattled and in a poor mindset, handling his 'title favourite' pressure quite badly. Changing the engine just before the first race was a sign of panic, and Ducati seems to be overthinking things as usual. They may be in for another year where they can't find consistency until it's too late...
I think it's a coin flip between Martin and Bastianini for who has shown the most promise. One major concern about Martin long-term is his potentially Pedrosa-esque ability to get badly hurt when he falls off. It may be no coincidence that they're both tiny, even by the typical jockey-size standard of pro riders. Either way, those two are definitely racing this year for Miller's seat next year. Martin definitely has the inside track, but if Bestia can find a way to keep that old Duc performing and Martin misses a few rounds, things could change fast.
(Knowing how you feel about Spanish vs Italian riders/teams, I have no doubt as to which rider you like better!)
One thing that seems to be flying under the radar for now is just how consistently awful the Tech3 KTM team has been, both last year and this year. Gardner and Fernandez were probably the two most talked about rookies coming into the season, and neither has done anything except circulate at the back, even getting beat by Darryn Binder. The bikes are supposedly 2022 spec, so there has to be some concern at KTM about what's going on at Tech3, as they were just as bad for almost all of last year with a very experienced Petrucci aboard. A single point from three rounds can't be good enough for anybody, even considering both riders are rookies. I don't think Raul will pull a Vinales and make it a PR nightmare to keep him under contract, but it's an open secret that he thinks the Yamaha is a better fit for his style. Circulating at the back and celebrating finishing 16th won't do much for his career, so it's easy to see why he had to be dragged over to MotoGP kicking and screaming
I watched the BT Sports coverage and Neil Hodgson gave a great call on the two passes where Aleix ran wide after each pass giving the position back to Martin. He said Aleix needed to learn to lightly brake when passing on the inside of Martin, effectively performing a block pass. On the third attempt that's exactly what he did and was successful.
Priller
Well-known member
In hindsight, Aleix was clearly testing things with the two passes, as he knew he had the pace to reel Martin back in fairly quickly if he ran wide. He was faster everywhere except Sector 4, so it was important to make the pass early enough in the lap to build a big enough gap not to get passed back on the front straight. This is all clear having rewatched the race, but at the time it had the potential to be a sign of desperation (especially after the second attempt went the same as the first). Having watched again without being on the verge of a heart attack, I'm really impressed by Aleix's racecraft, as he played the race almost perfectly. All the riders said there was a lot less grip for the race than there had been all weekend, so using Martin as a guide to find the limits and biding his time for the pass while preserving his tires was the ideal approach. Maybe he could have checked out earlier if he'd had a better start, but it may have also set him up for a fall, like Bagnaia at Mugello last year...
Very happy for Aleix!
While it's exciting to see natural talents like Rossi and Marquez dominate from the get go, it's always heart-warming to see a journeyman come up the ranks over the years and take that elusive first win. Especially when it's guys like Petrucci and Espargaro who wear their hearts on their sleeves. Dovi is another guy that has worked hard to get to where he is (or was).
I find myself always rooting for the underdogs.
While it's exciting to see natural talents like Rossi and Marquez dominate from the get go, it's always heart-warming to see a journeyman come up the ranks over the years and take that elusive first win. Especially when it's guys like Petrucci and Espargaro who wear their hearts on their sleeves. Dovi is another guy that has worked hard to get to where he is (or was).
I find myself always rooting for the underdogs.
Love seeing Suzuki and Aprilia with machinery at/near the top. I always pull for Suzuki.
Last season I wanted Rins punted as he couldn't finish a race and now I'm wondering if he was just trying to push a less-competitive bike too hard to keep up.
Last season I wanted Rins punted as he couldn't finish a race and now I'm wondering if he was just trying to push a less-competitive bike too hard to keep up.
Winales_2017
Well-known member
(Also, your pro-Spanish/anti-Italian bias is showing again...
I've lived and work in Maranello, home of the other Red team.
I understand the inner-workings of the Italian mindset in Emilia-Romanga rather well as I spent a part of my career in that town and got to meet engineers/workers of said Red team. I got to be good friends with the ex-mayor as he was a regular as well as some of those on Corsa-side of things during the Alonso era. They all flipped for VAG Audi/Lamborghini as soon as they could because of how toxic things are done in said team.
So it's no surprise to hear and see that Ducati motorsports division was ran the same way as Ferarri.
It's no shock to me that they are as self-defeating as they are: hence why the got rid of JLO (and paid an obscene amount of money to do so), Petrux and Dovi the way the did instead of ever question why management has failed to deliver results: it's always someone eles's fault, specifically the drivers/riders/engineers, and it's been like this sine the days of when Enzo ran things in ER.
I'm more anti-VR46, that is my reputation here so I lean into it now, he is the archetype of the short-sighted Italian way of doing things and it's quite frankly pretty lame.
Be born into a poistion of privlidge, leverage those conenctions to get successful, build a moat, and exclude those who do not have my blessing and build an empire from those that do in exclusive deals with Teams, Sponsors, Organizers etc... Then when you stop being relevent in the thing/sport you get upset when you're de-throned and make a drama of how things are everyone else's fault but yours and they have 'ruined the sport.'
I like riders who made it their the hard way and you can see the hunger in their eyes to get a chance for a ride, and in the case of Marc will become the paradigm shift for the sport itself in the process, it's not often the case these guys ever get into professional motorsports but it is for most of the riders I support who just happen to be Spanish. Things have changed for some in Spain with all the funding into motorsports, but it isn't equal: Pedro Acosta's father is a fisherman for example.
Just to be clear, Michelin brought a dangerous tire to Indoensia, those tires weren't working for anyone; it's unfortunate that Marc's weekend ended the way it did, but that is how most riders felt: Mir said there would be no way his race wouldn't end up with him staying on the bike given how the track and tire combo worked out for most riders. The cruel irony was that with the long delay caused by the rain it wouldn't matter as the wet compounds seemed to have been a better and safer tire than the dry tires. Again, I blame Michelin and HRC for not telling Marc to remain composed on a weekend where damage limitation and point accumulation was the goal, not winning as he wouldn't be battling up front given those elements.
Piug is a horrible person who will always ask for more, and has shown that nothing is ever good enough (like utter domination of the field in 2019) Nakamoto despised him and for his continuous indiscretions that go against Japanse Corporate culture for this and the fact that HRC put him in place speaks volume as he ruined Pedrosa's career.
Besides that you make good counter points, I just think that most riders have to think their is an asterisk next to their title knowing they didn't battle a healthy Marc after all these years of domination, whether they admit that or not is another matter, but it must irk them they never even got close to be a challenge until his injury(s) which we all knew would eventually catch-up with him.
Sidenote: I don't want a repeat of 2019, either. It was boring as a spectacle that year, but going back and seeing how dominant his riding was and how he set the new water-mark in the sport was something else. Plus I just like his riding style so much on what has to be the most violent machine on the grid by a large margin, having gotten into bikes late in life it's insane how a Human can do what he does on 2 wheels and get away it. And if you go back to my comments you'll see how I knew it wouldn't last because of the amount of risk he was taking, but that is what made it so enthralling: it was like seeing a captivating but short-lived event.
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I think Marc is going to retire soon, his body is beat, and if he's not winning he won't race.
Winales_2017
Well-known member
I suspect a COTA win in typical domination, and then scattered top 10s until Sachsen Ring with another dominant win. Anything else from now until final race in Valencia is incredibly hard to say given how bad the HRC development has been this year, but hopefully those wins will be enough to convince him he has much longer staying power if he stays healthy and he adapts to the situation better. retirement at 29 after such an illustrious career would be sad, and I don't think he'd give up before he gets at least 9 titles, ideally 10+ but so much depends on his health.
He isn't out of the title yet, recovering from 2 GPs is possible, he did something similair in 2017 (or whenever Mav joined works Yamaha and had that massive lead) and caught up to him before the Summer break. But given that Aleix is currently leading the title hunt says it all, it really shows just how crazy the current order is on the early fly-away races.
He has gotten the all clear and will be racing this weekend:
'Very happy' - Marc Marquez announces MotoGP return
Eight-time world champion Marc Marquez will be back in MotoGP action at this weekend's COTA round in Austin, Texas.
www.crash.net
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Priller
Well-known member
I was mostly giving you the gears, though both the highlighted bits above paint with a pretty broad brush! I get you had a bad experience with Ferrari, but things are not universal. Look at Aprilia: adding Rivola (also ex-Ferrari) has totally transformed the character of that team, and he's as Italian as it gets!
That said, Ducati is a very odd example, and with all the disappointments over the years, there has to be something wrong internally at the factory in how they develop bikes and riders. I will say, though, that Dovi and Petrucci's performances post-Ducati suggest they were part of the problem rather than the solution. Great riders, yes, but not championship calibre. I think Ducati's problem now is two-fold: First, Dall'Igna is so obsessed with improving the bike that he never stops long enough to fine tune what he has. Second, they are defeating themselves by having too many riders on the grid with top-spec machinery. This will win you constructors championships, but not the title. So having Bagnaia drop points to other Ducatis in the early rounds, combined with a bike so complex it takes over half a season to find a solid setting, and you get wins but not riders championships.
If Pecco is right, and they found something before the race in Argentina, then it could be interesting. But so could Honda, Suzuki, KTM, and likely Yamaha. Even Aprilia isn't done yet, as they are still two podiums away from losing concessions....
Don't get me wrong, I've never been a big Rossi fan, mostly because I could never understand why he got so much attention. I also started out as a Biaggi fan (Rome connections, I guess), and so was always frustrated by Rossi's total dominance of him as a precocious kid. But I don't think it's fair to call him short-sighted with what he has built with his brand. It's a bit weird to see almost every Italian rider in GP's funneling through his academy, but without his investment, the sport was threatening to become almost totally dominated by Spanish riders, as their development classes are so closely tied to the GP pyramid.
His frustration with Marquez is a bit disingenuous (especially complaints about ruining the sport), as it's as much about losing his aura to Marc as anything. But that's the nature of any top-level athlete: they are hyper-competitive and want to literally kill anyone who threatens their ability to win. It's actually why I don't think Bagnaia will ever be a dominant champion, as he's just too nice. He has a shot at winning a title or two (if Ducati can stop shooting themselves in the foot on the development side) purely because of his talent, but he doesn't seem to have the win-at-all-costs hardness that the true greats like Roberts, Lawson, Rainey, Doohan, Rossi, Lorenzo (I say reluctantly) and Marquez had or have. That single-mindedness wins championships, but it also comes from a place of deep selfishness and ego, which both Rossi and Marquez have in spades.
I'm not sure it's Michelin's job to tell Marc how to ride! Blame for that round is an interesting debate, as some (like David Emmett) have been very vocal in saying that it specifically wasn't Michelin's fault for the scenario in Indonesia. The track is not right, and needs fixing. The fact that they had to repave half of it (all they had time for) because the surface was coming apart during the test tells that story. There is no tire that will perform similarly to their standard sets (and thus work with how the bikes have been developed) and still perform with track temperatures as high as 67C. Also, many of the riders seemed to be under the mistaken impression that the Mandalika test was for their benefit. It was not. It was specifically for Michelin to figure out how to make the race safe, as they already had their usual Sepang test. So when you combine the heat with the terrible paving, Michelin had to play it safe with a very hard tire to avoid failure during the race, and everyone had the same limitations. \
Even Lorenzo suggested the problems were unique to Honda, and that only their TC settings seemed broken enough to allow for huge highsides when everyone else was perhaps more conservative. Either way, it was clear to anyone that Marc was pushing well beyond the limits in his desperation to make Q2, and then didn't seem able to pull it back in warmup. If you watch the replay, the bike is super twitchy leading up to the crash, which suggests he was working the TC regularly.
You'll get no arguments from me about old black-cloud misery-guts Puig, though Honda still keeps him around despite it all.
Fair point, but there is no way to know, though. If anyone does manage to beat a healthy Marquez over a season, there will always be questions about whether he is the same rider after all the injuries etc.
This will be a very interesting test for Marquez and Honda. All the pieces are there for a return to form, but there also a couple of variables from last year: the surface has been redone which will help other riders, and the Honda is an entirely different bike that may not be as perfect for the layout. If he wins, I think he'll be in the hunt for the championship if he can stay healthy. If not, especially if he gets beaten by Pol again, then it may be a long year for him.
Absolutely not out of it at all. None of his rivals were able to make any significant gains over the first three rounds. He's only a point behind Bagnaia, and I don't think Binder will be consistent enough to capitalise on his lead among the contenders. If Marquez wins at COTA, he'll be right in the mix. Should be fun...
Winales_2017
Well-known member
Martin is living up to his promise, I just hope he stays healthy enough to see this season out; he has to get a works bike next season. There is no way Ducati can be that blind to keep the current line up as-is. He needs to work on his launches to stay up front, but other than that he seems like a complete rider that not since JLO can take a World Championship for Ducati. Pecco showed promise, and could probably still do it in time, but I think he doesn't have it right now. Miller, while an exciting rider, isn't consistent at all. He is also a really bad hot-head that makes him a liability when things aren't going well.
Martin also has a close relationship with JLO, too so that will help him navigate the space and hopefully negotiate for the best salary possible.
Marc is struggling today, and for some reason decided to not get a tow for his last lap(s), I think he bet on Enea staying on the bike in the early part of the session and was thinking he'd get a banker lap from it as he was looking really good in all sectors until Enea bailed out of this last lap.
Either way, I see a podium at the very least for Marc, his race pace coupled with his experience will make for an interesting race as he makes his way up the field. I'd rather see that than a processional COTA race that we've all come to expect.
Martin also has a close relationship with JLO, too so that will help him navigate the space and hopefully negotiate for the best salary possible.
Marc is struggling today, and for some reason decided to not get a tow for his last lap(s), I think he bet on Enea staying on the bike in the early part of the session and was thinking he'd get a banker lap from it as he was looking really good in all sectors until Enea bailed out of this last lap.
Either way, I see a podium at the very least for Marc, his race pace coupled with his experience will make for an interesting race as he makes his way up the field. I'd rather see that than a processional COTA race that we've all come to expect.
Great race, could have been a barn burner finish if MM93 had a better start.
Ducati have the bike, but who is the guy. Pecco looks lost at the moment but I think that will change by the time Motogp gets back to Europe, Miller a solid effort today, but Enea, he seems to be the one.
Ducati have the bike, but who is the guy. Pecco looks lost at the moment but I think that will change by the time Motogp gets back to Europe, Miller a solid effort today, but Enea, he seems to be the one.
Suzuki's are competitive on every track and their riders are staying on the bikes (I'm looking at you Rins).
I think Rins will have a great shot at the title this season if he continues to finish races as he's always right near the top ala Mirs championship season (not the fastest, but near the top in each race).
I think Rins will have a great shot at the title this season if he continues to finish races as he's always right near the top ala Mirs championship season (not the fastest, but near the top in each race).
That's one of the downsides to riding for the factory team. The engineers are constantly pushing the performance envelope with new parts. Sometimes those new parts make the bike go faster, sometimes not.
Meanwhile the satellite teams get the benefit of tried and tested technology, plus settings from previous tracks and races.
Yamaha was the same way a couple of years ago, when the Tech3 riders on a one-year old M1 were consistently placing higher than the factory team on new machines.
Yup- this is the reality of this 1000cc era. With such tight regulations, the incremental gains are much smaller than they've ever been. If the factory missteps at all, it falls behind to its own predecessor.
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