"“It’s not the other vehicle you need to worry about.”" - Halton POlice

[YamaMana]

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Well doc, stopped traffic, volatile in/out area, inside lane, lane splitting, still traveling at speed ... not exactly defensive driving so although the car is totally at-fault, I think I'd have to check the box for motorcycle driver error as should have been somewhat preventable.

 

[DaveTheCanuck]

The stats are specifically for Halton Region roads. I'm sure most here know the roads in HH and Milton are frequented by riders, and quite a few riders like to think of them as their personal track.

There have been a lot of motorcycle collisions in Halton already this year (many fatal), most either single-vehicle (motorcycle loses control), or where the motorcycle was travelling at a high rate of speed.

It doesn't help that the season started off with that nitwit doing more than double the speed limit and sliced an SUV in half, killing himself, his passenger, and the driver of the other car.

 

[油井緋色]

"You go where you look" is the first thing I was ever taught on a bike and it wasn't on a track, it was in a school playground before getting the learners permit to ride a bike under graduated licensing in the UK. In the same country not one single insurance company will give you a break on insurance from attending a track school but they will give you a break on insurance from attending advanced street riding schools. Insurance companies are usually pretty good with playing the odds in their favour so perhaps they know something else? Perhaps it's because the primary goal of a track school is to get from A to B as fast as you can while on the street it's to get from A to B as safely as you can while dealing with obstacles you'll never find on a track (deer, opposing traffic, pedestrians, gravel, roadworks, potholes, pedestrians etc), speed is not a factor unless you are riding too slow and are a hazard to other traffic.

If I wanted to find the limits of my bike a track is exactly where I would take it though, exploring the limits of any vehicle is more than a little dumb on the street. I have no real desire to reach those limits, I like a nice big safety margin when I'm riding. Perhaps that's not enough of a thrill for some, for me I still have plenty of fun and in safety without attracting too much attention just riding within that safety margin.

As far as good street riders go, in my book that's one that consistently rides safely without causing an accident to themselves or to others. You can add style points, or speed points if you like, but for street riding the first part of this sentence is all you need.

It is?

So, have you ever done a track school or a track day?

(Hint, you haven't if you think the focus is on speed).

 

[griff2]

The stats are specifically for Halton Region roads. I'm sure most here know the roads in HH and Milton are frequented by riders, and quite a few riders like to think of them as their personal track.

There have been a lot of motorcycle collisions in Halton already this year (many fatal), most either single-vehicle (motorcycle loses control), or where the motorcycle was travelling at a high rate of speed.

It doesn't help that the season started off with that nitwit doing more than double the speed limit and sliced an SUV in half, killing himself, his passenger, and the driver of the other car.

This is what Al Gore might call an inconvenient truth.

 

[Brian P]

Maybe the idiots need to pay attention to themselves. The rest of us still need to worry about the other vehicle.

I put about 400 km on my sport bike yesterday. A chunk of that was in Halton Region. No cars were sliced in half, no damage was done, and no LEOs were offended.

 

[Neil_V]

Maybe the idiots need to pay attention to themselves. The rest of us still need to worry about the other vehicle.

I put about 400 km on my sport bike yesterday. A chunk of that was in Halton Region. No cars were sliced in half, no damage was done, and no LEOs were offended.

200+ in Niagara Region here; same result.

 

[Kri$han]

Many good quotes in this thread...

This year may be an anomaly for OPP-patrolled roads.

Over the longer term, the OPP reported a while ago that "Fact: Between 2008 and 2014, for 50 of the 175 motorcycle victims, the driver of the motorcycle was driving properly at the time." http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/motorcycle-deaths-could-hit-7-year-high-opp-says-1.2742576

I can believe this... I think the three fatal motorcycle accident causes are as follows (in no particular order):
- Showing off/Stunting/excessive speed/risky maneuvering
- Other cars not seeing us
- Alcohol/substance abuse

Re; showing off: Let's face it, its part of "hobby" culture... riding a bike here is a hobby, and we all do it for thrills. Some of us need to do crazy **** to get our thrills, and they can cost you your life on unpredictable public roads. So I agree with Benny;

This right here. Most of these accidents can be avoided by being vigilant.

Vast majority of street riders are way under skilled compared to you two.

It never will be. Too many anti speed Nazis and people who have never been on the track saying track techniques are useless on the street.

The above seriously makes no sense to me though:

Track riders generally do both street and track riding. If anything, the debate and input should only involve track riders.

......why riders that have not done both contribute is beyond me.

This guy talks way too much out of his ***; making generalizations about track rider's and their street riding, generalizing that people who ride street are unskilled, etc. etc. Do us all a favor and STFU.

While I don't disagree that riding on the track is paramount to improving your skills (cornering technique, body position, technical use of brakes and tires, understanding weight transfer & it's relationship to grip), HOWEVER it is NOT necessary to survive on the street., and I'd even wager to say that most of what your learn on a track isn't relevant or transferable to street survival (aside from those elements I just mentioned). You're not riding on the street like you would on a track... I've never tracked my bike and this is year number 8, still on the street. I've commuted home through 12" of standing water on the 400 in the epic rain storm of 2013.

There is also a big difference between me (having no track experience, but a pretty diverse background in driving/riding things), and the casual user who wears no protection, has zero experience on anything with two-wheels and bins himself because he never practices threshold braking...

People that ride bikes do a lot of dumb ****, at pretty in-opportune moments. Stay vigilant out there, friends. **** can go south REAL fast.

 

[ZX600]

It's amazing how people that have 0 experience on track are the ones that somehow can make a determination on what track does or does not do to street riding.

Talk about talking out of your ***.

We racers or track riders are not providing this feedback because we are trying to look cool or trying to say we are better etc, none of that crap. What we are saying is because we were street riders that believed like you guys do that we were great street riders and understood once we started riding track how that was not true and our short comings.

anyways, this conversation is just going round and round

 

[DaveTheCanuck]

Maybe the idiots need to pay attention to themselves. The rest of us still need to worry about the other vehicle.

I put about 400 km on my sport bike yesterday. A chunk of that was in Halton Region. No cars were sliced in half, no damage was done, and no LEOs were offended.

200+ in Niagara Region here; same result.

The idiots are specifically who this particular message is targeting. Granted, perhaps they could have worded it a bit better, or expanded a bit to give fair warning to drivers as well.

In the end, safe riders like yourselves are not the ones contributing to the statistics that lead to these campaigns. So keep doing what you're doing.

 

[jc100]

It is?

So, have you ever done a track school or a track day?

(Hint, you haven't if you think the focus is on speed).

Sorry...must have been my confusion with the words "race" and "fast" etc. Its good to know that race and track schools have no interest in assisting a rider with increasing speed round a closed course.

 

[Brian P]

Hint: Smoothness, predictability, risk management, and technique come FIRST. Getting faster comes later.

 

[ZX600]

At no point has anyone said to me "you need to go faster in this corner" - the instruction has always been "look more to the end of the corner" or "brake earlier so you can exit faster" or "enter the turn later or earlier" or "your throttle control is too abrupt" or "you need to put your foot here so that your body can slide and you body position adjusts" etc.

"Go faster" is not a piece of instruction, there needs to be actions learned and taken in order to go faster, those actions are useful on track or street riding.

 

[jc100]

Hint: Smoothness, predictability, risk management, and technique come FIRST. Getting faster comes later.

Everything an advanced street course can teach.

 

[ZX600]

That's great, people should take those.

Everything an advanced street course can teach.

 

[jc100]

That's great, people should take those.

Yes they should...I'd also like to see the UK type insurance breaks from taking them and I'd really like to see the police (motorcycle cops) involved in perhaps teaching more of them too. Sadly I spoke to a senior police officer and they had zero interest in doing so.

 

[Furpo]

Well doc, stopped traffic, volatile in/out area, inside lane, lane splitting, still traveling at speed ... not exactly defensive driving so although the car is totally at-fault, I think I'd have to check the box for motorcycle driver error as should have been somewhat preventable.

Quite. It is in fact rare for a motorcycle accident to have no element of rider error, that error usually being lack of anticipation of what cagers may do (see commentaries in the video section for ruthless but fair analysis). We worry so much about left turners: do we all cover our brakes, swerve a bit, wear high-viz clothes, ride in the right hand lane (or any appropriate combination of the above)? This is not to blame the rider, just that if our intention really is to get from A to B and we fail to because we forgot we may be invisible it seems a failure of riding skills (could I have done something differently?). Riding at the level that accommodates the awful drivers of the GTA should be the goal. And it seems so blindingly obvious that track days will improve your street riding it is amazing it's even a discussion. (And those that dismiss track days--do you actually do any street training?)

 

[jc100]

Quite. It is in fact rare for a motorcycle accident to have no element of rider error, that error usually being lack of anticipation of what cagers may do (see commentaries in the video section for ruthless but fair analysis). We worry so much about left turners: do we all cover our brakes, swerve a bit, wear high-viz clothes, ride in the right hand lane (or any appropriate combination of the above)? This is not to blame the rider, just that if our intention really is to get from A to B and we fail to because we forgot we may be invisible it seems a failure of riding skills (could I have done something differently?). Riding at the level that accommodates the awful drivers of the GTA should be the goal. And it seems so blindingly obvious that track days will improve your street riding it is amazing it's even a discussion. (And those that dismiss track days--do you actually do any street training?)

So just how would a track day have prepared the riders in MacDoc's video just out of interest? Several posts above it was mentioned that entrances to businesses/stopped traffic etc should be looked at as always having the possibility that someone might enter your lane unseen and so you need slow down and anticipate these things.

 

[油井緋色]

So just how would a track day have prepared the riders in MacDoc's video just out of interest? Several posts above it was mentioned that entrances to businesses/stopped traffic etc should be looked at as always having the possibility that someone might enter your lane unseen and so you need slow down and anticipate these things.

It doesn't. That type of situation only happens on the street. Don't take track courses, they don't cover every situation on the street /sarcasm

 

[Furpo]

So just how would a track day have prepared the riders in MacDoc's video just out of interest? Several posts above it was mentioned that entrances to businesses/stopped traffic etc should be looked at as always having the possibility that someone might enter your lane unseen and so you need slow down and anticipate these things.

1. Not sure tack days would have helped. Nobody is suggesting that track days help in all situations. Perhaps their vision, braking, swerving, or following distances would have been better.
2. And I agree with the several posts above (the point of my post really, the track day comment was an afterthought, though I stand by it). All of my near misses (all of which happened this year) have been because I was in a stupid position and not thinking enough. The worst was like the video, passing traffic too quickly and someone decided my lane looked better. Schoolboy error. I had another two near misses in short order before I realised that my new light and nimble bike had instilled in me a feeling of superhuman invulnerability. Had I crashed it would have been the driver's fault but I would have been the Idiot.

 

[jc100]

It doesn't. That type of situation only happens on the street. Don't take track courses, they don't cover every situation on the street /sarcasm

Much truth is spoken in jest.

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