Perhaps track instruction should be mandatory.
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"“It’s not the other vehicle you need to worry about.”" - Halton POlice
- Thread starter griff2
- Start date
That seems to be a well supported myth, but lacks any reliable evidence. They will point to evidence, but if you go there and actually read it, they're just wrong.
Lawyers in the U.S. like to use it to solicit clients.
Articles like to use it to sensationalize things. Here's a prime example in the Star.
They headline "Killer left turns await motorcycles", but fail to reference any stats, then below state "that of 279 motorcyclists killed in collisions, 190 died due to rider error".
https://www.thestar.com/autos/2015/04/10/killer-left-turns-await-motorcycle-riders.html
It never will be. Too many anti speed Nazis and people who have never been on the track saying track techniques are useless on the street.
The above seriously makes no sense to me though:
Track riders generally do both street and track riding. If anything, the debate and input should only involve track riders.
......why riders that have not done both contribute is beyond me.
Face
Well-known member
So in 50 out of 175 incidents, the rider was 100% not at fault. That means another driver was 100% at fault. In how many of those other incidents was the rider 100% at fault (like a single rider collision), and in how many was fault applied to both (or multiple) parties? Considering how the insurance industry likes to attribute fault as far and wide as possible to seek rate increases as often as possible, I suspect a relatively small portion of those 125 incidents would only have the rider 100% at fault. So if even 38 of 125 incidents attributed some level of fault to the other driver, then for at least 50% of the 175 incidents, it was (also) the other vehicle the rider needed to worry about. To publicly state what they did, Halton Police are giving the wrong message to both riders and drivers. So why would they say this? If you read the article further, you can see its to justify pulling riders over to hassle them about their gear, farkles and level of bike maintenance. None of which are a crime or have anything to do with how the motorcycle was being operated.
Don't worry, its just Griff2. He has a hate-on for any rider that isn't obeying 100% of the laws 100% of the time, and likes to point out every incident he can. He also likes to point out how the cops are always right and riders are always wrong.
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Who cares who is at fault - you are still dead..
I pretend I'm at fault for everything and riding is like a video game where everyone is trying to kill you.
Why get mad at soccer moms for being soccer moms?
Keep the blood pressure low and ride to survive - don't waste energy getting mad at other drivers - if you are mad you are already losing the game.
I pretend I'm at fault for everything and riding is like a video game where everyone is trying to kill you.
Why get mad at soccer moms for being soccer moms?
Keep the blood pressure low and ride to survive - don't waste energy getting mad at other drivers - if you are mad you are already losing the game.
Face
Well-known member
Agreed. The police are wrong to say “It’s not the other vehicle you need to worry about.” and clearly don't know much about actually riding in the GTA if they think this is true.
Nope, keep that crap on the street, not our tracks!
油井緋色;2432025 said:
Why not list off and explain which track techniques would be useful on the street and which would be dangerous? I didn't see Canada's Worst driver taking people to the track first episode. The goal of street riding is to get from point A to point B safely. Speed and time don't need to factor into the equation. That's one big difference between the two disciplines. So where is this data to back up any claims of track being useful? Maybe the track people can step up, instead of name calling.
Old data from U.S. but just under 50%, and that will most likely be only reported cases. Lots of people will crash and take off, if the bike is still rideable. https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811149
Face
Well-known member
And how many close calls, where a diligent rider avoids an unsafe lane change, left turn into traffic, U-turn in front of a motorcycle... etc go unreported or unrecorded. I'm sure it is much more than the number of single vehicle crashes that result in a bike that is still rideable, and the rider takes off. If we were stupid enough to follow the advice of Halton Police and didn't worry about the other vehicle, I suspect that that stats would show a higher percentage of multi vehicle motorcycle accidents.
Recently I had a car do an unsignaled U-turn immediately in front of me. I was watching the car as it started to slow for no reason. Because I was paying attention, I managed to avoid T-boning it, but it was close. I followed, got the licence and reported it to police, but because there was no accident, the Toronto police didn't lay any charges. Just one anecdotal piece of evidence about how the Halton Police are wrong in their advice, and how stats don't necessarily reflect reality.
ddusseld
Well-known member
Riding on the track teaches you what your bike can do at the limit. In an emergency on the street you may have to approach the limit of your bike. If you have done it on the track you have a much better chance of being successful on the street.
Canada's worst driver is about entertainment, not really teaching driving techniques. If during the filming of the show a few of the contestants learn a few techniques then bonus..
Canada's worst driver is about entertainment, not really teaching driving techniques. If during the filming of the show a few of the contestants learn a few techniques then bonus..
Because we already did for you a few years ago, even Rob stepped in, but yourself, and griff kept insisting it was useless hence why I will repeatedly call people out for being ****** riders until I see otherwise.
Also, comparing cars to bikes is just not right. Oversteering or understeering a car involves screeching tires but can easily be corrected. You know what happens when you oversteer or understeer a bike? You probably crash. I can push a car to it's traction limit far more easily due to the mental safety net of knowing "if I screw it, it'll just spin out". On a bike, if the rear end kicks out and I do something stupid like drop the throttle or touch the brakes (which is what instincts say), there's a chance I'm going to get flipped off.
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Roadghost
Well-known member
I say it's the fault of all those stunt-riding sport bike riders. They oughta outlaw those things.
Which is good to know whether you are in car, truck or bike, but approaching the limits should never be part of everyday driving or riding on the street. When it does become part of street driving/riding, as it is for some here, you now have little or no margin to use for recovery when things go bad or the unexpected happens.
ddusseld
Well-known member
Which is why I said in an emergency on the street. Hopefully there are few emergencies...
Which is why I said in an emergency on the street. Hopefully there are few emergencies...
Should also add that riding at the limit increases the "stress threshold" that will cause a panic response. We all know panic instincts are just plain horrible while riding (jabbing on brakes, tensing up, target fixation, etc.). This is the primary reason why, aside from secondary ones like skills developed), track day riders are far less likely to be crashing on streets if riding at a legal pace.
油井緋色;2432063 said:
That was one technique hanging off, which also had some valid counterarguments, for why it shouldn't be necessary for street riding.
On the track people fall off and its often not such a big deal, on the street, that's careless driving. Same thing with a car, why push it to it's traction limit on the street. Remember the goal is to go from point A to point B safely.
The other thing is that you don't have to go so fast that you need a track, to engage in many of these techniques.
Seriously ? "what do you learn on the track that is useful on the street"
I got one word for you fellas and that word is "Brakes"
Comfort with your brakes, comfort during braking while in the middle of a turn, comfort standing a bike up in the middle of a turn to avoid an obstacle.
A track "day" (not racing) is just a big road where there are no cars and all the bikes are going the same direction.
"What could we learn while going all in the same direction without having to worry about cars, on the same stretch of road, all day as much as we want?" - a ton.
I got one word for you fellas and that word is "Brakes"
Comfort with your brakes, comfort during braking while in the middle of a turn, comfort standing a bike up in the middle of a turn to avoid an obstacle.
A track "day" (not racing) is just a big road where there are no cars and all the bikes are going the same direction.
"What could we learn while going all in the same direction without having to worry about cars, on the same stretch of road, all day as much as we want?" - a ton.
I very much agree with this sentiment
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