900,000 students coming in…

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crankcall said:
Ontario buggered this forty yrs ago when I was in high school, the channeling system where you were in a four yr or five yr program and the dumdums where in a “tech wing” . You had the smokers hall , machine shop,metal fab, auto and it’s where most dummies got sent . The clever lads were funneled to algebra and biology and off to a uni education. Unlike European society where being a cabinet maker was a good job and a machinist was respected, we made it a consolation prize . Our leadership in education was so short sighted .
My nephew the plumber has bought a house, has a family and makes a decent wage . My niece the Queens uni film and cinema major lives with her parents .


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It's hard to compare 40 years ago (let alone remember). I my area there were vocational schools that taught the basic 3Rs and had a focus on preparing kids for a career in the trades -- generally non-red seal stuff. Academic schools 2 streams, general and academic. The general stream ended at Grade 12 and had simpler concepts in the curriculum; this was for students looking at colleges and Red Seal apprenticeships. The academic stream richer content and a courses that were not available in the general stream (Calculus, Biology, Physics, Economics etc) for students interested in University -- your first year of university was completed in high school (grade 13).

Academic schools had vocational courses (auto, wood, construction, metal, typing, beauty, homemaking (home ec)) that were used as courses of interest and for those interested in trades.

40 years ago you also had different post-secondary options. Large companies (IBM, Xerox, all banks, most large industrial companies like GE, Homeywell etc) had their own career development programs for bright high school grads. This was equivalent to a trades apprenticeship, and generally produced the highest caliber employees - until the early 90's a majority of large company executives were developed in this stream, not university. Those programs do exist still, however, the entrants need to be top-tier university grads -- being a bright high school grad won't get you in.
 
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ReSTored said:
One of the key questions here is just what is the right balance between a high school diploma, college diploma, trade school diploma, an undergraduate degree and a masters and doctorate.

Let's not be pumping out people with undergraduate and post graduate degrees when employment prospects are minimal and people end up in jobs for which they are significantly overqualified for, from an education perspective. In the meantime we have trades where there are massive shortages and thousands that plan to retire in the next 5 - 10 years. Want to build thousands of homes? You might need carpenters, plumbers, electricians to actually do the work. Need a mechanic to repair your computer on 4 wheels? You may be SOL as there is already a shortage of mechanics and, in particular, those trained to work on the advanced electronics that are standard now in virtually all cars and light trucks.

Ontario needs a comprehensive plan to attract people to enroll in programs that are geared to meeting the needs of the economy. Using trades as an example work with industry to define the need for people, current enrollment, expansion of class and apprenticeships spaces and then discount tuition and student loans to enable and entice people to enroll. This is a long term plan, not one geared to 4 year election cycles.

This is complicated stuff to do properly, vs. the simpleton approach of freezing tuition for 8 years to appeal to voters. A huge percentage of the immigration issues we face in Ontario are a direct result of DoFo's tuition freeze and then education budget cuts. The motivation to hugely expand foreign student enrollment is a direct result of this naive tactic Ford used to buy votes.
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Higher Ed for me includes trade schools. They are absolutely as necessary as the others and they need investment the same as the others.
 
The nursing shortage was not just the Liberals ( but they didn’t help) , the move to educate further and need a uni degree became a barrier to entry . Colleges like Sheridan and Humber did a fine job of weeding out kids in the first semester, they knew in three months who would finish the program. The Unis were different, when my mom became a nurse you needed grade ten and three referral letters , when my wife became a nurse it was three yr ( post WWII they needed nurses) community college with multiple placements where you were graded . Wife’s last job before she retired was supervising “new grads “ and orienting them. For every bright light an equal amount of five watt bulbs got through the cracks .


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JC99 said:
Higher Ed for me includes trade schools. They are absolutely as necessary as the others and they need investment the same as the others.
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Agreed, but I think they do get lots of funding - both schools and students. I know a couple of 20 year old plumbing apprentices, they earn $25/hr during the week and up to $40 an hour for out of town assignments. Plus they get a truck, paid fuel, tool allowance, and get 1/2 their tuition paid. If they work a full year they make >$60-70K and have almost no work related expenses.
 
ReSTored said:
One of the key questions here is just what is the right balance between a high school diploma, college diploma, trade school diploma, an undergraduate degree and a masters and doctorate.

Let's not be pumping out people with undergraduate and post graduate degrees when employment prospects are minimal and people end up in jobs for which they are significantly overqualified for, from an education perspective. In the meantime we have trades where there are massive shortages and thousands that plan to retire in the next 5 - 10 years. Want to build thousands of homes? You might need carpenters, plumbers, electricians to actually do the work. Need a mechanic to repair your computer on 4 wheels? You may be SOL as there is already a shortage of mechanics and, in particular, those trained to work on the advanced electronics that are standard now in virtually all cars and light trucks.

Ontario needs a comprehensive plan to attract people to enroll in programs that are geared to meeting the needs of the economy. Using trades as an example work with industry to define the need for people, current enrollment, expansion of class and apprenticeships spaces and then discount tuition and student loans to enable and entice people to enroll. This is a long term plan, not one geared to 4 year election cycles.

This is complicated stuff to do properly, vs. the simpleton approach of freezing tuition for 8 years to appeal to voters. A huge percentage of the immigration issues we face in Ontario are a direct result of DoFo's tuition freeze and then education budget cuts. The motivation to hugely expand foreign student enrollment is a direct result of this naive tactic Ford used to buy votes.
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The wrench in the spokes of the above is the need for publicly traded mega corporations to make more profit every year. If they don't, share values plummet. The trickle-down effect is a bunch of low paying jobs at the bottom of the pyramid.

You don't need a high school diploma to flip burgers or pour coffee, never mind post-secondary education. Social attitudes (It's beneath me), expectations and laziness don't help.

The failure is in reality education.
 
nobbie48 said:
Carney's committees with their diverse opinions equals confusion to the third power.
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But Carney dropped the toll fees for the bridge to PEI by 60%!!!!

Wait, the government is reimbursing the investment firm that runs the "scheme" (current fee of $50 to cross the bridge???) for their losses. Hmmmm, who runs the investment firm? Why its Anita Anand's husband. Of course. All makes sense now. Nothing to see here. Move along.
 
FullMotoJacket said:
But Carney dropped the toll fees for the bridge to PEI by 60%!!!!

Wait, the government is reimbursing the investment firm that runs the "scheme" (current fee of $50 to cross the bridge???) for their losses. Hmmmm, who runs the investment firm? Why its Anita Anand's husband. Of course. All makes sense now. Nothing to see here. Move along.
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What doesn't make sense to me is: "Tolls are collected when leaving PEI."

When you go to centre Island you pay the fare to get there, return is built in. If you overspend on popcorn and rides you don't have to swim home.

At the PEI bridge you're held hostage if you run out of money.
 
nobbie48 said:
What doesn't make sense to me is: "Tolls are collected when leaving PEI."

When you go to centre Island you pay the fare to get there, return is built in. If you overspend on popcorn and rides you don't have to swim home.

At the PEI bridge you're held hostage if you run out of money.
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They want to encourage tourism. Paying on the way in would cause a lot of people to divert.

FWIW, the bridge and ferry used to be different prices. If you want the experience at minimal cost, you would take the expensive one onto the island as it was free and the cheap one off. I can't remember which was which. When I went, the wait for the ferry was a few hours so I took the bridge and beat the ferry to the dock in PEI.
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