Probate lawyer? | GTAMotorcycle.com

Probate lawyer?

S

spitRR

Well-known member
I'll try to keep this short and to the point;

My father passed last month and unfortunately had no will. My sister who was living with him believes she is entitled to sole ownership of the house as she claimed it was only her name on title. However, by way of a quick title search, I discovered our father's name was also on title as well.

From my very limited understanding, ownership of the house can be contested since it was not only in my sisters name.

So I'm looking for some basic advice on how to proceed and recommendations on local (Markham) lawyers - free initial consultation would be a great bonus.

And yes, I know this is going to get messy.
Thx GTAM!
 
I used these folks for my mother's and father's estates as well as the sale of their house.
Be prepared to be patient, these things can drag out for years.

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Sorry for your loss. This is going to suck. Good luck. I am not a lawyer but I suspect the path she will try (if she gets competent advice) is to try to be considered a dependent and therefore needs the house to maintain shelter. That has been a successful path in the past. Now, maybe you can be on title and get half the proceeds if she eventually sells but forcing a sale will be an uphill battle I think. Family fights are awful.

Most lawyers give you 15 minutes of free advice. They are concise and to the point. 15 minutes is normally enough for you to see the likely path.
 
If you haven't already (and are truly willing to go through the fight that will follow), apply IMMEDIATELY to be Estate Trustee. If she finds out she will fight it and it will go to court to be decided. It is my understanding that if her name is on the title (with only his as the other title holder) then the house is now hers and she can do what she wishes with it, WITHOUT A WILL, as it will pass to her. This was explained to me by my mother's estate lawyer after she passed last year, said I should have had my name put on with her, as well as any other of her assets (bank accounts etc), as it would have avoided any probate. I still would have to follow the instructions in the will as to how to distribute her assets but I wouldnt have had to pay estate taxes on the property. Without a will and an executor/trustee, nobody can touch any assets (or ask any questions!!!), unless their name is on them.

Sorry, I cant recommend a lawyer near you. If any lawyer tells you this shouldnt be to hard, walk away and look for another. I am my mom's executor and it was a 'easy' estate to settle, according to my lawyer. Probate with a will took over 8 months. I am still waiting on CRA clearance before I am supposed distribute anything (I have but held enough back just in case something major comes up).

As info, my lawyer fees on an 'easy' estate closure were approx $4000. Estate taxes etc are on top of that.

Good luck and I am sorry for your loss.

EDIT: Good news. since her name is on the title of the house, she is responsible for everything to do with it, property taxes, insurance, utilities etc.
Bad news. It is also my understanding that if there is no executor/trustee, you cannot stop any income coming in (CPP, OAS, CAIP, pensions, utilty subsidies etc). These will all have to be paid back to the issuers back to the date of death once proof of executor/trustee etc is supplied.

EDIT 2: I mentioned the above edit because those moneys may be auto-deposited into the same account that the auto household payments (taxes, insurance, utilities etc) are coming out of. You wont be able to stop it and that money wont be there when they want it back.

This may help. Apply for probate of an estate
 
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I’m sorry for your loss. My parents also don’t have a will and say my sis and I will ‘just figure it out’. I’m sure we will, but we all know how sideways it can all go.

Wish you all the best during this difficult time.
 
Damn, sorry to hear that.

My dad passed 1.5years ago, my sister and I have been using Bonnie for our estate affairs. She has been competent and informative.

Shes in North York.

shumanlaw.ca

Bonnie Shuman; Real Estate, Wills and Estates, and Corporate Law | Isenberg & Shuman

Bonnie Shuman graduated from the University of Western Ontario in 1991 with a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology. She is a graduate of Osgoode Hall Law School in Toronto where she obtained her Bachelor of Laws degree in 1994 and was called to the Ontario Bar in 1996.
shumanlaw.ca shumanlaw.ca
 
After thought......

As Executor/Trustee you are responsible for every cent of the estate which includes paying back any money paid to the estate after death (and possibly before).

If the estate worth is primarily the property only, I would back off and let her deal with it since she already has ownership of the house (as is my belief). If there is a significant amount of other assets then maybe it is worth it to fight over. Being the executor/trustee in this situation will be a lot of work/time as well as out of pocket money until probated (as you cannot touch the assets until probated to help pay the costs involved).
 
hdsomeday said:
After thought......

As Executor/Trustee you are responsible for every cent of the estate which includes paying back any money paid to the estate after death (and possibly before).

If the estate worth is primarily the property only, I would back off and let her deal with it since she already has ownership of the house (as is my belief). If there is a significant amount of other assets then maybe it is worth it to fight over. Being the executor/trustee in this situation will be a lot of work/time as well as out of pocket money until probated (as you cannot touch the assets until probated to help pay the costs involved).
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Would likely depend on the type of shared ownership.

Tenants in Common = his share is held in trust by the estate until probate is settled
Joint Tenants with Right of Survivorship = his share is absorbed by her
 
spitRR said:
I'll try to keep this short and to the point;

My father passed last month and unfortunately had no will. My sister who was living with him believes she is entitled to sole ownership of the house as she claimed it was only her name on title. However, by way of a quick title search, I discovered our father's name was also on title as well.

From my very limited understanding, ownership of the house can be contested since it was not only in my sisters name.

So I'm looking for some basic advice on how to proceed and recommendations on local (Markham) lawyers - free initial consultation would be a great bonus.

And yes, I know this is going to get messy.
Thx GTAM!
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We used a Bay Street firm to get potential settlement info on my M-I-Ls will to judge how much we should be investing in the challenge. We didn't use them going forward as we felt their fees would not be reasonable due to the limited estate value.

The firm reviewed the will and various affidavits and discussed the potential outcomes. There were no black and white answers. A lot depended on how facts were presented and the mood of the judge. Compensation for legal costs could go in any direction. Their review was over $10K. Then the three year fight.

There's too much to type but if you want to talk PM me your phone number. Yeah, it gets ugly.

I don't mean to insult anyone's parents but if they don't have clear wills they must hate their children and want to destroy everything they worked for. Buy them dunce caps for Christmas.

And if you're given the honour of being an executor, READ THE WILL. The 5% shared fee may not be worth the years of aggravation and financial risk.
 
mimico_polak said:
I’m sorry for your loss. My parents also don’t have a will and say my sis and I will ‘just figure it out’. I’m sure we will, but we all know how sideways it can all go.

Wish you all the best during this difficult time.
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You and your sis may agree but what about a B-I-L or other relative that S**t disturbs and threatens their marriage if your sister doesn't go for more. What if your S-I-L has a financial set back and feels she needs more than her share?

I don't know if it would have any legal stature but what if you and your sister made a legal signed agreement of expectations upon the death of your parents. Keep in mind that unless your parents die at the same time (Car crash) the surviving spouse inherits the estate. Needs change and wills have to be updated.
 
GreyGhost said:
Sorry for your loss. This is going to suck. Good luck. I am not a lawyer but I suspect the path she will try (if she gets competent advice) is to try to be considered a dependent and therefore needs the house to maintain shelter. That has been a successful path in the past. Now, maybe you can be on title and get half the proceeds if she eventually sells but forcing a sale will be an uphill battle I think. Family fights are awful.

Most lawyers give you 15 minutes of free advice. They are concise and to the point. 15 minutes is normally enough for you to see the likely path.
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Dependency is based on several factors. Relationship: parent / child is very strong 5/5. Uncle /nephew is less etc. How long they lived in the house gets a higher rating with the length of occupancy. How much did they contribute to the running of the house is paradoxical. The less they put in the more credits they get. It isn't considered pre-inheritance, IE getting your share early. The total freeloader scores.
 
Since we love anecdotal stories , my BIL , a complete idiot moves into his parents house with his pregnant wife , parents move to a county apt at his sisters house . The “understanding “ was upon the parents death he would get the house . Paid minimal rent, lived large , partied harder. Fast forward 35yrs , parents die, and although he had taken his dad to a lawyer to update the wills , a month after the Dad dies and there is no will . He contacts lawyer who says “ I can’t talk to you about anything your dad and I talked about “ , it was suspected the sister burnt the only copy since the apt was at her house . At 55 he has to get his first mortgage to buy out his sister and brother so he can stay there . They don’t talk anymore .

Have your parents get a will , and a power of attorney letter and EACH kid if they are in it should have a copy. @nobbie48 , unless your parents hate you they should want a will , the Govt takes a large chunk when there is no will, and legal fees are stupid when everything to be sorted in probate, and allows the estate to be contested. Lawyers no longer keep copies of wills , that went away years ago . Don’t think that a small estate won’t bring out the worst in people , they blow up families over 9grand .


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crankcall said:
Since we love anecdotal stories , my BIL , a complete idiot moves into his parents house with his pregnant wife , parents move to a county apt at his sisters house . The “understanding “ was upon the parents death he would get the house . Paid minimal rent, lived large , partied harder. Fast forward 35yrs , parents die, and although he had taken his dad to a lawyer to update the wills , a month after the Dad dies and there is no will . He contacts lawyer who says “ I can’t talk to you about anything your dad and I talked about “ , it was suspected the sister burnt the only copy since the apt was at her house . At 55 he has to get his first mortgage to buy out his sister and brother so he can stay there . They don’t talk anymore .

Have your parents get a will , and a power of attorney letter and EACH kid if they are in it should have a copy. @nobbie48 , unless your parents hate you they should want a will , the Govt takes a large chunk when there is no will, and legal fees are stupid when everything to be sorted in probate, and allows the estate to be contested. Lawyers no longer keep copies of wills , that went away years ago . Don’t think that a small estate won’t bring out the worst in people , they blow up families over 9grand .


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My dad does hate paying taxes, maybe that’s the angle that should be taken.

Surprised the lawyer doesn’t keep the will as when my wife and I did it, we kept a copy, and the lawyer kept a copy.
 
crankcall said:
He contacts lawyer who says “ I can’t talk to you about anything your dad and I talked about “
Click to expand...

I'd be curious as to who the sister's lawyer is. Ask the father's lawyer if he is representing his sister. If he says he can't answer that, he's representing his sister.
 
crankcall said:
Since we love anecdotal stories , my BIL , a complete idiot moves into his parents house with his pregnant wife , parents move to a county apt at his sisters house . The “understanding “ was upon the parents death he would get the house . Paid minimal rent, lived large , partied harder. Fast forward 35yrs , parents die, and although he had taken his dad to a lawyer to update the wills , a month after the Dad dies and there is no will . He contacts lawyer who says “ I can’t talk to you about anything your dad and I talked about “ , it was suspected the sister burnt the only copy since the apt was at her house . At 55 he has to get his first mortgage to buy out his sister and brother so he can stay there . They don’t talk anymore .

Have your parents get a will , and a power of attorney letter and EACH kid if they are in it should have a copy. @nobbie48 , unless your parents hate you they should want a will , the Govt takes a large chunk when there is no will, and legal fees are stupid when everything to be sorted in probate, and allows the estate to be contested. Lawyers no longer keep copies of wills , that went away years ago . Don’t think that a small estate won’t bring out the worst in people , they blow up families over 9grand .


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com
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Nine grand? How about a teapot? I know a guy that was the executor of his aunt's estate and when she passed the guy's mom (Aunt's sister) said she wanted a particular teapot. Sonny boy said that wasn't in the will and it escalated. He and his mom didn't talk to each other for three years.

It's very common for someone not even mentioned in the will and having no status to say "I bought them that candle holder, vase, whatever and should get it back."
 
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