So, only riders should be allowed to drive poorly, or make mistakes, since they get hurt the most?
It's only manslaughter if you unintentionally cause death as a result of committing a criminal wrong. Unless your driving pattern over a sustained period of time immediately before a crash is overtly out of the norm to such a degree that it can be described as being dangerous or criminally negligent or impaired, it is very difficult to prove a crash was the result of criminal driving behaviour. End Quote
My interpretation of this logic is that Marco Muzzo was driving under the influence, a criminal charge, when he killed four people. Therefore he is facing stiff charges and penalties because he, in essence, killed people while committing a crime.
If Muzzo was sober and ran the stop sign because he was daydreaming, had the sun in his eyes, or was distracted by someone in the car what charges would he have been facing? a failure to yield?
I have a hate on for texting due to a personal encounter. If Muzzo ran the stop sign sober but texting what would be the charge?
My interpretation of this logic is that Marco Muzzo was driving under the influence, a criminal charge, when he killed four people. Therefore he is facing stiff charges and penalties because he, in essence, killed people while committing a crime.
If Muzzo was sober and ran the stop sign because he was daydreaming, had the sun in his eyes, or was distracted by someone in the car what charges would he have been facing? a failure to yield?
I have a hate on for texting due to a personal encounter. If Muzzo ran the stop sign sober but texting what would be the charge?
Drivers make mistakes .... If these guys had been driving SUVs it'd be just another fender bender. The law isn't going to excessively punish them because we choose the riskiest form of transportation. There's no reckless criminality on their part ... speeding, alcohol, texting
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It's only manslaughter if you unintentionally cause death as a result of committing a criminal wrong. Unless your driving pattern over a sustained period of time immediately before a crash is overtly out of the norm to such a degree that it can be described as being dangerous or criminally negligent or impaired, it is very difficult to prove a crash was the result of criminal driving behaviour.
In this case, there were several witnesses who remained to give statements to the police. On review of those statements, she was charged not with dangerous driving or criminal negligence causing death, and not even with careless driving. That suggests that from the police and witness points of view, she was driving normally and acceptably aside from making a left turn in front of an approaching vehicle. According to some witnesses at the time, the motorcycle may have contributed to the crash by running a stale amber light.
She was charged with making an unsafe turn. Ordinarily that would result in a simple POA ticket with a set fine which she could pay out of court. Because of the death, she did not get that option but instead got a summons compelling her to appear in court at which point she pled guilty. Instead of paying the set fine of $85 plus victim surcharge, she was fined the maximum of $500 plus victim surcharge. That's over 5 times the usual penalty, because of the death, so the death did in fact play a part in the punishment.
This may still seem like a paltry amount considering someone was killed, but you punish for criminal intent, criminal act, or criminal degrees of negligence. This crash had none of that. Not seeing or misjudging the speed of an approaching vehicle and then making a left turn in front of it, in absence of overtly criminal driving behaviour at and immediately before the time, is an unfortunate but simple mistake that usually just results in angry blowing of horns and the occasional fender bender. EVERYONE makes those kinds of driving mistakes from time to time.
A given act or mistake is either criminal or it is not, irregardless of outcome. If a given mistake in absence of death or injury is not worthy of criminal charges or penalties, then neither should that same act incur criminal charges or penalties when someone is hurt or killed for that mistake.
Drivers make mistakes .... If these guys had been driving SUVs it'd be just another fender bender. The law isn't going to excessively punish them because we choose the riskiest form of transportation.
It's only manslaughter if you unintentionally cause death as a result of committing a criminal wrong. Unless your driving pattern over a sustained period of time immediately before a crash is overtly out of the norm to such a degree that it can be described as being dangerous or criminally negligent or impaired, it is very difficult to prove a crash was the result of criminal driving behaviour.
In this case, there were several witnesses who remained to give statements to the police. On review of those statements, she was charged not with dangerous driving or criminal negligence causing death, and not even with careless driving. That suggests that from the police and witness points of view, she was driving normally and acceptably aside from making a left turn in front of an approaching vehicle. According to some witnesses at the time, the motorcycle may have contributed to the crash by running a stale amber light.
She was charged with making an unsafe turn. Ordinarily that would result in a simple POA ticket with a set fine which she could pay out of court. Because of the death, she did not get that option but instead got a summons compelling her to appear in court at which point she pled guilty. Instead of paying the set fine of $85 plus victim surcharge, she was fined the maximum of $500 plus victim surcharge. That's over 5 times the usual penalty, because of the death, so the death did in fact play a part in the punishment.
This may still seem like a paltry amount considering someone was killed, but you punish for criminal intent, criminal act, or criminal degrees of negligence. This crash had none of that. Not seeing or misjudging the speed of an approaching vehicle and then making a left turn in front of it, in absence of overtly criminal driving behaviour at and immediately before the time, is an unfortunate but simple mistake that usually just results in angry blowing of horns and the occasional fender bender. EVERYONE makes those kinds of driving mistakes from time to time.
A given act or mistake is either criminal or it is not, irregardless of outcome. If a given mistake in absence of death or injury is not worthy of criminal charges or penalties, then neither should that same act incur criminal charges or penalties when someone is hurt or killed for that mistake.
While I hate to admit it, I believe this is a sobering and true post above... if she didn't mean for it to happen she can't really be charged for anything criminal. someone also mentioned if this was an SUV vs SUV probably would have just been a fender bender and 2 insurance companies paying for some bent bumpers. In this case unfortunately it was a bike and not an SUV.
Drivers make mistakes .... If these guys had been driving SUVs it'd be just another fender bender. The law isn't going to excessively punish them because we choose the riskiest form of transportation. There's no reckless criminality on their part ... speeding, alcohol, texting
This is a sobering news to me and, I assume, many others .... so if a driver/rider cause an accident with a death as a result, all they can get as a conviction is a fine and demerit points, once no criminal intent or technical malfunction of vehicles involved was proven, but rather just "I have not seen him ..."? I thought you get high fine and demerit points for the HTA172 where no life has been taken.
How about, license taken away and ordering mandatory re-examination of driver's riding skills. For sure, I'd think that a lot more could have been done after an innocent life has been wasted.
I keep forgetting that we live in Ontario where speed always kills, regardless whether anyone was actually killed or not ....
How about, license taken away and ordering mandatory re-examination of driver's riding skills. For sure, I'd think that a lot more could have been done after an innocent life has been wasted.
I keep forgetting that we live in Ontario where speed always kills, regardless whether anyone was actually killed or not ....
So... what you're saying is, whoever has the bigger stick wins. Literally, and legally.
No, what people are saying is that when there was no criminal intent you can't whack someone upside the head with unjust charges. It was an accident afterall, not a planned event intent on harm. There is a big difference.
What I find inexcusable is the lack of any afterthought. It's chalked up to a mistake, a petty fine is handed out, and everyone goes about their business as if nothing happened.
The driver that killed the motorcyclist has to live with that for the rest of their life. Until you've met someone that has to live with that burden for the rest of their life you have no idea how much they suffer from it.
I want to believe that's true. If you've ever been in an accident, serious or fender bender, you'll note some people go directly to "how does this affect me?" not "are you ok?".