What/how to fall?

[Tripletrouble]

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Yea, people with ABS, should keep their delusions to themselves. Using both brakes is good form and its in the operators manual for my bike. Unlike a car a feel has to be established to ensure the front and rear is equally applied. You want to use the Front only go ahead. I did that and my front wheel went into a slide.

And people without proper experience should keep their opinions to themselves. If Griffin's experience of 35 years isn't enough for you then perhaps my 48 years is enough? I too have locked up the front wheel a total of once in those years , on a wet road but by backing off and reapplying the front brake a little less agressively I was able to safely complete my stop. I will literally bet my life that I will stop in a shorter distance than you if I use only my front brake in an emergency situation. I normally use various combinations of front and rear brake depending on the circumstances, such as in slow stop and go traffic I use the rear brake only, to prevent front end diving.
BTW I have never owned a bike with ABS.

 

[mike.from.canmore]

And people without proper experience should keep their opinions to themselves. If Griffin's experience of 35 years isn't enough for you then perhaps my 48 years is enough? I too have locked up the front wheel a total of once in those years , on a wet road but by backing off and reapplying the front brake a little less agressively I was able to safely complete my stop. I will literally bet my life that I will stop in a shorter distance than you if I use only my front brake in an emergency situation. I normally use various combinations of front and rear brake depending on the circumstances, such as in slow stop and go traffic I use the rear brake only, to prevent front end diving.
BTW I have never owned a bike with ABS.

Does this offer extend to anyone?
Does this offer extend to riders aboard bikes equipped with ABS?
Does this offer extend to riders aboard a totally different bike than yours? perhaps one that is longer and has more resistance to flipping over?

Are you really betting your life that you are the best at braking? - you never said the other guy is not allowed to use his front brake too!

 

[MacDoc]

and on what surface?

this

I will literally bet my life that I will stop in a shorter distance than you if I use only my front brake in an emergency situation.

The unfortunate thing is that roads are always cooperative.

 

[Acadian1974]

I guess my 35 years of experience braking almost solely with the front must have been an illusion then. Where do people get this crap?

My front wheel has slid a total of, count 'em, one time. I brake on wet roads all the time.

I really wish you people that have no clue would stop spouting these "facts" you dream up.

LOL, this rhetoric is too funny... No clue huh? So the curriculum taught by the MSF, CSC etc. are based on "dreamed up facts"?

And people without proper experience should keep their opinions to themselves. If Griffin's experience of 35 years isn't enough for you then perhaps my 48 years is enough?

What happens when data contradicts your experience?

I will literally bet my life that I will stop in a shorter distance than you if I use only my front brake in an emergency situation.

Doubtful:

"Emergency braking on a motorcycle equipped with a conventional braking system must involve use of the rear brake, even though it has a less important role than the front brake. It plays a role in the first instants of braking before the rear wheel becomes unloaded through weight transfer. The 16th best stop of the tests in the collection was made by a rider who did not use the rear brake."

- Excerpted from "Task analysis for intensive braking of a motorcycle in a straight line - Fédération Motocycliste du Québec"

 

[Baggsy]

Is the frustration caused by manufacturers building bikes with fancy rear brakes that you can't use?

I think the idea of doing a stoppie into a crash would be much More entertaining for the witnesses, but I'm not sure how it could be explained after the fact.

At least no one is advocating using only the rear brake, so that you don't go over the handlebars.

My plan, while seated here comfortably, is to stop in the shortest possible distance and miss the collision.
In my case that means both brakes applied on paved roads. Just because a cruiser can out brake me, doesn't mean I should not try. Practicing using the rear brake could mean the difference from stopping on the near side of a car or inside one.

 

[mike.from.canmore]

Is the frustration caused by manufacturers building bikes with fancy rear brakes that you can't use?

I think the idea of doing a stoppie into a crash would be much More entertaining for the witnesses, but I'm not sure how it could be explained after the fact.

At least no one is advocating using only the rear brake, so that you don't go over the handlebars.

My plan, while seated here comfortably, is to stop in the shortest possible distance and miss the collision.
In my case that means both brakes applied on paved roads. Just because a cruiser can out brake me, doesn't mean I should not try. Practicing using the rear brake could mean the difference from stopping on the near side of a car or inside one.

Maybe it's time to revive this OLD thread on braking....
I do think we got a few people to see the light. We can't make the unreasonable people become reasonable - even when presented with facts.

http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforu...ops-faster-quot-Car-VS-bike-quot-debate/page6

 

[MacDoc]

Bottom line you need to know how use both and when and there are times on certain surfaces where you have to be awfully careful with any form of front braking especially on a down grade.
Learn both
Use both
Learn when to use which on what surfaces....the learning never stops.

 

[Tripletrouble]

My post was to ItIsWhatItIs in particular because of his comments and obvious inability to brake effectively. I don't profess to be the best at anything just stating that I would likely outbrake him because I do know the limits of my bike, Which is a fairly heavy beast and probably wouldn't stop as quick as a sportbike with a competent rider aboard. The idea is to educate newer riders and don't be afraid of the front brake as it will do the vast majority of the braking.

 

[ItIsWhatItIs]

My post was to ItIsWhatItIs in particular because of his comments and obvious inability to brake effectively. I don't profess to be the best at anything just stating that I would likely outbrake him because I do know the limits of my bike, Which is a fairly heavy beast and probably wouldn't stop as quick as a sportbike with a competent rider aboard. The idea is to educate newer riders and don't be afraid of the front brake as it will do the vast majority of the braking.

I have put almost 40 000 km on my bike I have riden that road for almost two years. Is that sufficient experience? or I am still a noob.? Over the last 2 years I have riden in temps from - 9 to the peaks of summer. I have riden when frost was on the windshields of cars and snow in the fields. In the aviation world it's hours in the cockpit not years holding a license. 35 years, 45 years means nothing its the k's accumulated and the conditions riden in. I know my route and my riding habits became sloppy. The morning in question was 6 degrees, well above zero. The roads were wet from rain with some puddles. It was a downgrade to a stop sign. This particular morning as I was braking I looked down in horror to see my front wheel going into unrecoverable slide. I went down. At the time I thought there was something wrong with the bike. The day of, I replayed the events, and concluded it was my braking. I looked over my bike, the only damage a broken turn signal lens and scuffed handlebars. Since the event I have put a few hundred k's on the bike. It's riding fine. The error was with me and my braking. I am not blaming the road, black ice, whatever. I blame myself. As things go, 99% of the time something may work, its the 1 % percent you have to watch out for. That 1% got me.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

I have put almost 40 000 km on my bike I have riden that road for almost two years. Is that sufficient experience? or I am still a noob.? Over the last 2 years I have riden in temps from - 9 to the peaks of summer. I have riden when frost was on the windshields of cars and snow in the fields. In the aviation world it's hours in the cockpit not years holding a license. 35 years, 45 years means nothing its the k's accumulated and the conditions riden in. I know my route and my riding habits became sloppy. The morning in question was 6 degrees, well above zero. The roads were wet from rain with some puddles. It was a downgrade to a stop sign. This particular morning as I was braking I looked down in horror to see my front wheel going into unrecoverable slide. I went down. At the time I thought there was something wrong with the bike. The day of, I replayed the events, and concluded it was my braking. I looked over my bike, the only damage a broken turn signal lens and scuffed handlebars. Since the event I have put a few hundred k's on the bike. It's riding fine. The error was with me and my braking. I am not blaming the road, black ice, whatever. I blame myself. As things go, 99% of the time something may work, its the 1 % percent you have to watch out for. That 1% got me.

Just to throw a little wrinkle into it, it isn't so much the number of Kms travelled, as it is the quality of those Kms that implies skill. You can do 200,000 Kms in a couple of years, all on the highway, and learn almost nothing. On the other hand you could do 30,000 Kms, on Tennessee back roads, and ride like a pro. In aviation it would be like comparing the skill of a commercial airline pilot, to a graduate of Red Flag.

 

[Deimos]

Wear your gear and hope for the best. Unless you've been in multiple accidents at varying speeds, there's just no way to anticipate how to go about it.

I got lucky when a pickup swiped me off the road onto a sidewalk at 40km/hour, just got a sore knee and thumb. Thank common sense for wearing a full faced helmet and leathers.

 

[dru9]

Just to throw a little wrinkle into it, it isn't so much the number of Kms travelled, as it is the quality of those Kms that implies skill. You can do 200,000 Kms in a couple of years, all on the highway, and learn almost nothing. On the other hand you could do 30,000 Kms, on Tennessee back roads, and ride like a pro. In aviation it would be like comparing the skill of a commercial airline pilot, to a graduate of Red Flag.

^This. Besides, 40,000 kms is only 3 years of riding for many members of this forum.

 

[MacDoc]

or 6,000 km on a mix of forest trails, dirt roads and twisties in Australia

No ride was longer than 420k - some rides were 10 hours and I cam home drained and a better rider even after 43 years.
Old skills get the rust brushed off, new skills like a knobby in the rain down hill on the Rex get established.
I can do a 1000 km on the slab and have.....and learn very little.
Or 12 hours and 300 km in the back roads and get a lot of practice on varied surfaces and the odd horse drawn conveyance.

It is saddle time in at different speeds and conditions that will give you depth of experience to draw on when the unexpected occurs.....and it will

My yearly average is about 25k tho more this year with the riding in Oz and di come back a better rider.

 

[VicRR]

I've given the original post much thought.
Braking (like a fat woman on the way to a gym) is 1st.
Past that when you are going directly into a vehicle in front of you and crash is inevitable, the grand oh **** moment : I've drawn the conclusion that lifting up on the pegs and trying to jump just before impact is the only survival option. Stats i read determined somewhere near 85-89% of motorcycle deaths are cause by the riders body making impact with a blunt object like a street pole or the side of a vehicle.
Far far fewer deaths are caused by a rider being ejected over a car, hitting the pavement in a bad way (sliding and hitting a fence or pole aside). Breaking neck is rare when hitting only pavement.
-My humble opinion if you can't stop or avoid, jump as a last ditch effort...
Other than a helmet gear doesn't prevent deaths. It'll save your skin and very few back/neck protectors will keep you walking but gear will not save your life vs a car.

 

[ZX600]

This is not true, and its also bad advice.

It is sad but unfortunately its true. Cops can and will change you with careless if you crash on your own

 

[OpenGambit]

It is sad but unfortunately its true. Cops can and will change you with careless if you crash on your own

What you are saying is that if you had a choice between crashing into a car and not hitting it, you would hit it because of "insurance" or "might get a ticket" reasons?

 

[MacDoc]

Vic RR
I suspect that it would all happen way too fast to prepare and jump and you in that same time your brakes are hauling you down at an astounding rate. Trying to lose the bike loses the crumple zone and the mass of your bike cushioning the deceleration.

Humans can withstand incredible G-forces and lets face it - you are going to be launched over the bars if you do hit...

you've seen how fast air bags deploy - you can't really see them but that split second is enough to keep your deceleration within limits.

Now of course the rider died in this crash as did the car driver but look how far the bike penetrated.

A car is not an abutment or a tree or a guardrail or a wall - there is a crumple factor and vector forces at play and any angular hit will improve your chances of staying within the deceleration limits.

I got hit quarter on ( in my van ) by a car going 70 kph - lots of damage but neither vehicle deployed air bags as there was an angle on the hit.

When you are still connected to the motorcycle it is your crumple zone and in my view it's your only real protection as it has the mass to spread the impact over time. You don't.
For you - the car is effectively an immovable object - add in a 600 lb bike and you have a bit better mass parity and therefore the bike takes a chunk of the hit and the forks are in play here as well as they bend and crumple and reduce the G spike to a bit flatter curve.

I'd be haulin on those brakes until they smoked and sticking with the ride....my two cents.

 

[mimico_polak]

In the case described where the bike dissipates the energy of a crash...I understand this point but I don't know how much of an effect that will have in the total energy dissipation. The crumple zone is extremely small and frankly the bike may slow down but your body will continue forward effectively at the speed of impact.
ive not done a great deal of research but from what I understand modern gear is primarily for abrasion resistance in a slide/fall...I don't think the properties of the gear is very effective in a circumstance where the riders body hits a solid object...please correct me if I'm wrong. Effectively you'd be riding in a big air bubble to protect in this instance.
in readings I've done it also seems that accidents where the rider is thrown OVER the object have a much greater chance of survival in comparison to those who hit objects which they can't clear upon impact.

There have been som very good points listed out in this thread and I'd like to thank all those who contributed as I find this topic extremely important and have gained some good knowledge with various viewpoints presented.

 

[ItIsWhatItIs]

^This. Besides, 40,000 kms is only 3 years of riding for many members of this forum.

yeah right, most riders do 7 to 8 a year.

 

[ItIsWhatItIs]

Just to throw a little wrinkle into it, it isn't so much the number of Kms travelled, as it is the quality of those Kms that implies skill. You can do 200,000 Kms in a couple of years, all on the highway, and learn almost nothing. On the other hand you could do 30,000 Kms, on Tennessee back roads, and ride like a pro. In aviation it would be like comparing the skill of a commercial airline pilot, to a graduate of Red Flag.

nonetheless, emphasizing years rather than k's can also translate into zero learning. Where you ride is important to gaining certain skills for sure.

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