Steps towards a simpler life

[GreyGhost]

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I think the whole idea of assimilation assumes that there is some kind of permanence of culture.

Every conversation, every interaction we have with people who look and act different from you inevitably changes both you and eventually the society at large. Although it may seem more nobler to respect the local customs and "go with the flow", your mere presence alone has impacted what that place's future looks like. Even physicality isn't required these days, as mediums like this forum and the Internet shapes culture moving forward.

There is a slow assimilation on both sides, you and the place you move to.

My Italian friends here in Canada always make fun of their nonnas and nonnos because they try to hard to maintain their traditions ever since leaving "the old country" decades ago. Whether it's the food or the language or customs, they believe they are upholding the one true way of life in a foreign and hostile place, bent on eroding their Italian-ness.

Meanwhile back in Italy, they have K-Pop, they eat fusion pasta with sauces from all around the world, watch Hollywood movies like everyone else. The nonnas and nonnos are holding onto an Italy that doesn't exist anymore. Italy moved on, they haven't.

Another story: My wife moved to Canada shortly after the war in Yugoslavia. After the war, the government changed the Croatian language to distinguish it from Serbian. My wife never got a change to learn the new Croatian language and whenever she goes back, her friends all make fun of her because she talks like an old nonna using terms and lingo from another faraway time.

Bottom line, you can be respectful of customs and tradition, but the idea of assimilation as asymmetrical doesn't ring true. Change is bound to happen on both sides of your skin.

I agree. As a start, if you don't put effort into learning the local language for the country you chose to move to, imo, you're a dick. You decided to move there, get it done. You may not get to a perfect accent but have at least a functional level so you can easily converse with most people. My family member was an expat in three countries. Shortest was four years, longest was decades. In each country, he learned to speak the native language. There are many people that move and actively refuse to learn the local language. F those people. Even on vacation, I try to pick up what I can but it's normally difficult as those around you are catering to english speaking patrons.

 

[JC99]

I think the whole idea of assimilation assumes that there is some kind of permanence of culture.

Every conversation, every interaction we have with people who look and act different from you inevitably changes both you and eventually the society at large. Although it may seem more nobler to respect the local customs and "go with the flow", your mere presence alone has impacted what that place's future looks like. Even physicality isn't required these days, as mediums like this forum and the Internet shapes culture moving forward.

There is a slow assimilation on both sides, you and the place you move to.

My Italian friends here in Canada always make fun of their nonnas and nonnos because they try to hard to maintain their traditions ever since leaving "the old country" decades ago. Whether it's the food or the language or customs, they believe they are upholding the one true way of life in a foreign and hostile place, bent on eroding their Italian-ness.

Meanwhile back in Italy, they have K-Pop, they eat fusion pasta with sauces from all around the world, watch Hollywood movies like everyone else. The nonnas and nonnos are holding onto an Italy that doesn't exist anymore. Italy moved on, they haven't.

Another story: My wife moved to Canada shortly after the war in Yugoslavia. After the war, the government changed the Croatian language to distinguish it from Serbian. My wife never got a change to learn the new Croatian language and whenever she goes back, her friends all make fun of her because she talks like an old nonna using terms and lingo from another faraway time.

Bottom line, you can be respectful of customs and tradition, but the idea of assimilation as asymmetrical doesn't ring true. Change is bound to happen on both sides of your skin.

That's pretty deep. I may need some class A assistance.

I think I get what you're saying. Assimilation isn't a monolithic thing with a defined set of “milestones”.

 

[JC99]

I agree. As a start, if you don't put effort into learning the local language for the country you chose to move to, imo, you're a dick. You decided to move there, get it done. You may not get to a perfect accent but have at least a functional level so you can easily converse with most people. My family member was an expat in three countries. Shortest was four years, longest was decades. In each country, he learned to speak the native language. There are many people that move and actively refuse to learn the local language. F those people.

Don't be ridiculous. Everybody knows that to be understood anywhere in the world you just need to shout the words louder and louder in the language Jesus used. English.

 

[Glenn/RZ500]

I find this stuff really interesting. How do you assimilate successfully?

No need to over think any of it. Like Jules said to Ringo in the diner.. " Chill that beeyotch out." Just go with the flow, When in Rome........

 

[Mad Mike]

This is such a common story. We've lived in a few places for months to years at time, Thailand, Mexico, Colombia, South Africa.

Seen so many ex-pats move to a lower cost-of-living country thinking it's just going to be like home, except cheaper. Based all their research on a two-week vacation on a beach resort.

"We're gonna live like F-n kings!!!"

And then they encounter language/cultural barriers, lack of sanitary practices, poor air quality due to no environmental-protection enforcement, no government services like garbage collection, nobody fixing huge gaping holes in the sidewalk, lack of infrastructure like sewage systems, broken roads that require you to repair your suspension every year. Political instability, rampant crime, long queues for inadequate and overly-bureaucratic services like renewing your drivers licenses, passports, etc. Corruption at every level from the police to vendors squeezing ex-pats extra hard for bribes and "special fees" because they know you have more money than the locals. Being treated like a walking ATM every where you go, hands outstretched all the time at you.

If you want the same standard of living, you'll have to pay extra and the cost works out to almost the same as the west, otherwise you're eating, shiiting and sleeping like the locals.

About the only thing that is cheaper is local food and healthcare.

The ones that prosper in these places end up staying because they genuinely like the culture, not because they are escaping financial hardship at home. They speak the language fluently, have local friends, their kids play with local kids, cook local dishes at home, they watch local TV and movies in the native language without subtitles. They don't surround themselves with an ex-pat cocoon of other western economic refugees just so they can speak English to somebody... anybody...

Worse still are those who barely have enough funds to emigrate to a LCL-country, and find out there is no way they can come back to the west because they've been aged/skilled out of the job market, and priced out of the housing market having stepped off the property ladder. For those folks, it's a one-way trip to a false paradise.

Go in with your eyes open, not your wallets closed.

You're talking about the melting pot approach, take an interest and assimilate into the local culture. Most of the world takes this approach; Canada is a bit of an outlier (along with Singapore) in that we do not expect cultural integration, instead, we promote multiculturalism. Other countries have multiculturalism and a policy - Australia, most Nordic states, however there is a sizable difference between policy and cultural acceptance -- most 'multi-cultural' prefer to celebrate multiculturalism but hold and protect their national culture first.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Multiculturalism as a policy -- my preference is to promote diversity, but not dilute what little culture Canada has. I know lots of people who came to Canada as teens, moved to a cultural enclave, and never learned to speak English. A good friend's mother came to Canada in 1950 from Italy at 18. She lived in Little Italy, worked as a seamstress, and couldn't speak a lick of English when she died last year. My next-door neighbor is Greek, she came here as a young woman 65 years ago - same, she has as much English as the average Scarbarin has French. I live most of the year in a Chinese community, I see plenty of Chinese nationals that don't speak English in Markham.

 

[ToSlow]

Although Singapore is multicultural, the inhabitants definitely don’t act the same as the do in this country

 

[Lightcycle]

I think I get what you're saying. Assimilation isn't a monolithic thing with a defined set of “milestones”.

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that when you talk about assimilating to a foreign culture, whose idea of culture are you trying to assimilate to?

If you emigrate to Norway, learning Norweigan is a nice gesture, but ultimately a waste of time as 90% of the population speaks English. Same with other countries like India which has a huge English-speaking population and a gazillion Indian languages and dialects.

Then there are things like sensitivity to cultural appropriation which, to my eyes, is purely a Western phenomenon. We were in Northern India and we saw people dressed in the Adivasi tribal clothing. We thought they were indigenous peoples until we saw them return the clothing to the rental place. They were from Delhi and playing dress-up for selfies. The rental place was run by Adivasis, but they were all wearing jeans and were on their smartphones.

Same in Japan where we saw so many women in geisha outfits. We talked to a few of them and found out most of them were Chinese and Korean tourists renting the outfits for the day.

Lots of Westerners admonish women who wear chopsticks in their hair as an affront to Asian people. I can only speak for myself, but I don't really give a fork if you wear chopsticks or a spatula in your hair. I think it's dumb-looking but I'm not culturally offended...

The world is moving more and more towards globalization. I think as long as you're respectful to whomever you're dealing with, most people will cut you slack for not knowing all the local customs.

Except for the Japanese. They will judge the F out of you for every single etiquettte mistake you make. Tap the bottom of your chopsticks on the table to straighten them? Barbarian!!!!

 

[nobbie48]

At least he tried though. The other kind of expat I see are the worst kind. The ones that don't even try. They try to mould where they live into a mini (or maxi) version of what they have back home. They build gates around groups of houses to keep the riff raff (locals) out except for the cheap labour of course and only associate with each other.

There's a place in Panama called Boquete which is a mountain town with a more or less permanent 24c temp year round. It's beautiful, they grow coffee there. It's now filled with ex pats and the locals can't afford to live there. The ex pats have built drive through cafes and the like and the Panamanian culture is being squeezed out. Last time I was there the remaining locals had posted big signs saying “we are not selling” as there had been a property gold rush with gringos approaching locals with fistfuls of cash for their homes. There was a lot of resentment.

I don't get it, why travel to a foreign country if you don't want anything to do with the people or culture?

My brother and his Panamanian wife settled in Boquete. Nuff said.

Personally, I don't like beach vacations. I'd prefer to work alongside someone in a similar trade to see how differently they get things done. Looking at scenery is OK but being part of it is enlightening.

 

[Mad Mike]

Then there are things like sensitivity to cultural appropriation which, to my eyes, is purely a Western phenomenon. ...

This one grinds me. I remember reading a bleeding heart editorial in the Star a few years ago about a caucasian anglo woman selling Chinese stuff i Greektown - it was written by a Chinese Canadian who appropriated an Anglo name and dyed her hair blonde.

I have no issue with either -- but to chastize someone for appropriating culture when one has so blatantly done it herself seems a bit ironic.

I can't imagine how I'd be received if I went to a party in blackface, or strolled through Brampton wearing a Turban or ornate gold-embroidered sherwani.

 

[Lightcycle]

Don't be ridiculous. Everybody knows that to be understood anywhere in the world you just need to shout the words louder and louder in the language Jesus used. English.

We spent several months in Botswana living in a couple of cities for a month at a time.

The Chinese government has really taken advantage of several African nations, striking up rapacious deals with corrupt leaders in order to strip the countries of minerals and semi-precious stones. Lots of Chinese workers at the mines live for stretches at a time in housing communities set up by the Chinese government/corporations. There is a feeling of ill-will towards them by the local population.

I was at a grocery store one day and the checkout girl was scanning in my items. She asked me, out of routine more than anything, "Will that be all?"

I replied with my typical Hoser accent, "Yep, thats everything. Thanks."

That's when she looked up at me in utter surprise.

She said, very loudly and slowly: "YOUR. ENGLISH. IS. VERY. GOOD."

Without skipping a beat, I replied, also loudly and slowly, "THANK YOU. YOUR. ENGLISH. IS. VERY. GOOD. TOO."

That's when she realized I wasn't a Chinese worker from the mines.

She laughed.

I laughed.

It was quite the United Nations moment...

 

[nobbie48]

At least he tried though. The other kind of expat I see are the worst kind. The ones that don't even try. They try to mould where they live into a mini (or maxi) version of what they have back home. They build gates around groups of houses to keep the riff raff (locals) out except for the cheap labour of course and only associate with each other.

There's a place in Panama called Boquete which is a mountain town with a more or less permanent 24c temp year round. It's beautiful, they grow coffee there. It's now filled with ex pats and the locals can't afford to live there. The ex pats have built drive through cafes and the like and the Panamanian culture is being squeezed out. Last time I was there the remaining locals had posted big signs saying “we are not selling” as there had been a property gold rush with gringos approaching locals with fistfuls of cash for their homes. There was a lot of resentment.

I don't get it, why travel to a foreign country if you don't want anything to do with the people or culture?

It's the reason Americans like Canada. We speak English, drive on the right and use dollars. They go to a foreign country but they feel at home.

 

[nobbie48]

I think the whole idea of assimilation assumes that there is some kind of permanence of culture.

Every conversation, every interaction we have with people who look and act different from you inevitably changes both you and eventually the society at large. Although it may seem more nobler to respect the local customs and "go with the flow", your mere presence alone has impacted what that place's future looks like. Even physicality isn't required these days, as mediums like this forum and the Internet shapes culture moving forward.

There is a slow assimilation on both sides, you and the place you move to.

My Italian friends here in Canada always make fun of their nonnas and nonnos because they try to hard to maintain their traditions ever since leaving "the old country" decades ago. Whether it's the food or the language or customs, they believe they are upholding the one true way of life in a foreign and hostile place, bent on eroding their Italian-ness.

Meanwhile back in Italy, they listen to K-Pop, eat fusion pasta with sauces from all around the world, watch Hollywood movies like everyone else. The nonnas and nonnos are holding onto an Italy that doesn't exist anymore. Italy moved on, they haven't.

Another story: My wife moved to Canada shortly after the war in Yugoslavia. After the war, the government changed the Croatian language to distinguish it from Serbian. My wife never got a change to learn the new Croatian language and whenever she goes back, her friends all make fun of her because she talks like an old nonna using terms and lingo from another faraway time.

Bottom line, you can be respectful of customs and tradition, but the idea of assimilation as asymmetrical doesn't ring true. Change is bound to happen on both sides of your skin.

Go to Dauphin Manitoba, an island of early Ukrainian immigrants. Like any island they have developed their version of the language and culture, totally different from Ukraine.

 

[Mad Mike]

...

I don't get it, why travel to a foreign country if you don't want anything to do with the people or culture?

Ever been to Canada?

 

[nobbie48]

This one grinds me. I remember reading a bleeding heart editorial in the Star a few years ago about a caucasian anglo woman selling Chinese stuff i Greektown - it was written by a Chinese Canadian who appropriated an Anglo name and dyed her hair blonde.

I have no issue with either -- but to chastize someone for appropriating culture when one has so blatantly done it herself seems a bit ironic.

I can't imagine how I'd be received if I went to a party in blackface, or strolled through Brampton wearing a Turban or ornate gold-embroidered sherwani.

Cultural appropriation. Isn't that where a person coming from a country that is known for its tea exports, comes to Canada and opens a coffee shop.

 

[JC99]

Ever been to Canada?

I went through the beginners skating all the way through ice hockey lessons along with a bunch of enthusiastic immigrants.

Canada is way more integrated than most make out.

 

[ToSlow]

Go to Dauphin Manitoba, an island of early Ukrainian immigrants. Like any island they have developed their version of the language and culture, totally different from Ukraine.

Go to NF and some of the smaller villages, you'll be hard pressed to understand what the conversations are about

 

[Mad Mike]

I went through the beginners skating all the way through ice hockey lessons along with a bunch of enthusiastic immigrants.
…

Me too.

 

[JC99]

Me too.

I'm a certified Canadian ice pylon.

 

[Mad Mike]

I'm a certified Canadian ice pylon.

I used to teach those classes at Canlan. It was a lot of fun (I did it for free). Participants were really enthusiastic and several from each class would sign up for beer league hockey.

I also ran a similar program for kids new to Canada in one of the top hockey towns in Canada. Way less interest for kids, and participation rates were dismal.

When I left, 60% of the community were immigrants or children of. I’d guess less that 2% of the 2500 kids in the local leagues were represented.

I compare that to when I was a kid in Scarborough, my teams were chock full of Italian, Greek, and Portuguese kids. They were integrating.

 

[crankcall]

Sport is really where the “integration “ shows up . We ran a program this summer on behalf of the SeaScouts and Cadets in Oakville. Ninety five percent were non white kids . Regular enrollment was eighty percent white kids . My help at football camp ( soccer ) was a complete smorgasbord of kids . We went to watch my friends kid at Canadian football camp , it was less integrated. Even getting girls involved at high level sailing has been a challenge, only changing because funding mandates make it happen .
But back on topic , the sooner you realize ( for me anyway) there will always be someone with more money , learning to be content with what you have will help. Learning to be content is almost therapeutic.


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