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Rider down "accidents" - Can anything be learned?
- Thread starter Baggsy
- Start date
J_F
Guest
I imagine for any accident there could be learnings
as for the brief write-ups we get from news agencies?
prolly not enough info to really know the underlying factors
one thing that can almost always be said
the rider would be better off having been in a car
but that's the risk we accept
as for the brief write-ups we get from news agencies?
prolly not enough info to really know the underlying factors
one thing that can almost always be said
the rider would be better off having been in a car
but that's the risk we accept
As a starting point, there are very very few "accidents". Most incidents are "crashes" with many contributing factors. While normally not intentional, calling them accidents grossly minimizes the actions of those involved which lead to the crash. In my mind, if you get hit by a falling airplane, that would be an accident, if somebody hits you while driving, that is a crash (normally caused by negligence).
Agree. Although, sometimes they include enough pictures that a reasonable story can be created. Without access to the details, you can't prove your story is correct, but more often than not, you can determine rough speeds, where on the road surface the crash occurred (ie. who was intruding), and the relative orientation of the vehicle and bike at the moment of impact.
I haven't compiled stats, but my eyeball average says most crashes that get reported are a left turning vehicle and a bike going at least slightly over the speed limit, sometimes grossly over the speed limit. I am sure there are a ton of single vehicle bike crashes where the rider gets their bike pulled out of the ditch and few people ever hear that it happened.
4 years ago on Nov 18 I was hit by somebody making a left turn in front of me.
What did I learn and what do I do different now? (and everybody is different)
I don't ride after Oct 31st anymore. A few of "my" reasons, road is cold, tires are cold, people stop seeing lots of bikes on the road after October.
I always ride with my high beams on in the daytime. I wear more colourful clothing and helmet.
I make sure my bike has ABS and traction control, I'm an older rider and every little thing helps.
This may not be for everyone, like I said we are all different.
I really never liked riding in colder weather anyway (even with warmer gear)
These things do not mean that nobody will hit my bike again, but I just feel better changing a few things.
What did I learn and what do I do different now? (and everybody is different)
I don't ride after Oct 31st anymore. A few of "my" reasons, road is cold, tires are cold, people stop seeing lots of bikes on the road after October.
I always ride with my high beams on in the daytime. I wear more colourful clothing and helmet.
I make sure my bike has ABS and traction control, I'm an older rider and every little thing helps.
This may not be for everyone, like I said we are all different.
I really never liked riding in colder weather anyway (even with warmer gear)
These things do not mean that nobody will hit my bike again, but I just feel better changing a few things.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Yes, I used to think I knew everything, today I know there is never too much to learn about riding. Discussing collisions, whether it be with another vehicle or terrain, is important because it helps us understand ways to keep safe. There isn't much to learn when a rider filters at 150kmh an plows into the back of a truck, but when a rider contacts a left turner, or runs wide and off the road there are things to learn.
Discussing hazards helps make strategies and behaviours that minimize risk. Sometimes they are catalysts for reforms. I've l;earned things from discussions here that make me a safer rider, I'm sure others have too.
Discussing hazards helps make strategies and behaviours that minimize risk. Sometimes they are catalysts for reforms. I've l;earned things from discussions here that make me a safer rider, I'm sure others have too.
sburns
Well-known member
Sorry to hear about your accident. Glad to know you are still riding.
But are any of the things you mention would have helped in the situation? Was there anything you could have done to possible prevent it.
It's sorta like what Dan Dan the fireman does
www.youtube.com
DanDanTheFireman
Do you want to learn how to ride a motorcycle, and then advance those beginning riding skills? If so, then keep watching! My name is Daniel, and I've been ri...
www.youtube.com
Exactly. The underlying causes of many accidents we see posted about here are clear. Motorcycle wrecks often tell their own story unlike cars.
Obviously if it's a "Rider was going 250KM/h and ran into the back of a semi" not only is the cause fairly clear, but there's not much of a worthy discussion to be had about it.
However, there are tons of other accident scenarios where the results were avoidable, or at least able to be minimized (IE, hitting a car at 20KPH vs 80KPH)...if the rider had behaved differently. This can be a great learning moment.
What can we learn from:
1) "the rider was lane splitting at a speed well above that of the traffic and collided with a truck"
2) "the rider, southbound on Martin Grove Road, at 2:00 AM collided with a northbound semi turning left on Vulcan Street."
In #1 there is little one can say other than trash the rider. The location is generic.
In #2 the M/C would have been coming up from the railroad underpass and not visible to the truck driver until the last moment and after the trucker had committed to the turn. He would have been focused on his entry to Vulcan Street.
Also the truck driver could have been lulled into thinking there was little chance of traffic at that time.
The rider's lessons are:
Use caution when popping up out of depressions or from around blind corners.
Don't ride beyond you braking and / or sight limits
1) "the rider was lane splitting at a speed well above that of the traffic and collided with a truck"
2) "the rider, southbound on Martin Grove Road, at 2:00 AM collided with a northbound semi turning left on Vulcan Street."
In #1 there is little one can say other than trash the rider. The location is generic.
In #2 the M/C would have been coming up from the railroad underpass and not visible to the truck driver until the last moment and after the trucker had committed to the turn. He would have been focused on his entry to Vulcan Street.
Also the truck driver could have been lulled into thinking there was little chance of traffic at that time.
The rider's lessons are:
Use caution when popping up out of depressions or from around blind corners.
Don't ride beyond you braking and / or sight limits
It's one thing if there is something to be learned; there always is. It's quite another to get the right people to listen.
Going 100+ km/h faster than almost-stopped traffic immediately adjacent...not a good idea. If you had gone back in time and told that rider to slow down under those conditions, would that rider have listened and done it?
Going 100+ km/h faster than almost-stopped traffic immediately adjacent...not a good idea. If you had gone back in time and told that rider to slow down under those conditions, would that rider have listened and done it?
Trials
Well-known member
Practice practice practice ?
I'm not sure. If I had my high beams on, maybe she would not have said "I didn't see him" If I had stopped riding at the end of October that year, but that could just be bad luck. ABS would not have made a difference I don't think, she was too close for me to stop.
Since we're currently discussing speed in adjacent traffic situations I'll spill the beans on my own story;
Was traveling south on Dufferin, north of Finch intersection. The 2 normal lanes ahead were stopped (red light) with plenty of cars, so i opted for the HOV lane on the right (left blocking position). Continued towards the intersection, had maybe 2 cars sitting ahead of me at the light and the lane to my left was bumper to bumper of stopped cars so i toned it down to maybe 30-40km/hr. I know from previous cage experiences to keep my head on a swivel in these situations so i proceeded to do just that.
I'm about 12 car lengths from the intersection when a Mercedes SUV 'magically' appears from the left lane cutting across into mine about 4 car lengths ahead. Driver was south bound, had made a left turn and managed to squeeze between the stopped cars. (Replaying this moment in my mind i remember wondering where the F this guy came from and realized there was a truck ahead in the left lane which blocked the view of this SUV perfectly until too late). I should also note, this SUV did not do the typical 'show your nose' and inch your way in to a live lane while checking for oncoming traffic, he was fully in my lane in the span of a second trying to 'gun it' into the plaza to the right of me.
Well i debated my options and felt like i didn't have much to work with; cars to my left and a decent curb to my right so i opted to slam the brakes both full on and just shave off as much speed before impact as possible. Impacted his passenger front fender and bike went down, my chin bounced off his vehicle and i went down and i live to tell the story.
/letmehaveit
Was traveling south on Dufferin, north of Finch intersection. The 2 normal lanes ahead were stopped (red light) with plenty of cars, so i opted for the HOV lane on the right (left blocking position). Continued towards the intersection, had maybe 2 cars sitting ahead of me at the light and the lane to my left was bumper to bumper of stopped cars so i toned it down to maybe 30-40km/hr. I know from previous cage experiences to keep my head on a swivel in these situations so i proceeded to do just that.
I'm about 12 car lengths from the intersection when a Mercedes SUV 'magically' appears from the left lane cutting across into mine about 4 car lengths ahead. Driver was south bound, had made a left turn and managed to squeeze between the stopped cars. (Replaying this moment in my mind i remember wondering where the F this guy came from and realized there was a truck ahead in the left lane which blocked the view of this SUV perfectly until too late). I should also note, this SUV did not do the typical 'show your nose' and inch your way in to a live lane while checking for oncoming traffic, he was fully in my lane in the span of a second trying to 'gun it' into the plaza to the right of me.
Well i debated my options and felt like i didn't have much to work with; cars to my left and a decent curb to my right so i opted to slam the brakes both full on and just shave off as much speed before impact as possible. Impacted his passenger front fender and bike went down, my chin bounced off his vehicle and i went down and i live to tell the story.
/letmehaveit
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Is it a matter of not being willing to listen to advice....or just never hearing said advice to begin with?
If you're referring to the accident I think you are from last summer, honestly, a lot of people I discussed it with after the fact had really never thought that the situation she put herself in was particularly dangerous to begin with. Further to that, many never "thought outside the box" so far as doing it anyways, but doing something as simple as changing your blocking position to give yourself an escape route.
Even those who may grump and bristle at being "told how to ride" because they think they know it all will often chew on said advice in their head afterwards...and perhaps act on it regardless.
Again...if it saves a single life....not worth having the discussion?
The accident in question was, IMHO, 75% avoidable. A simple position change could have made it entirely survivable. Do new riders, or even some experienced ones understand that?
Glad you're here to tell us about it, hope you're otherwise well.
"Let you have it"? Nope. You did everything right IMHO. Reducing as much speed as physically possible until the moment of impact was your best option and you didn't do anything stupid like "laying it down" or other crap that some still believe is the right course of action - more reasons to discuss things like this and dispel those old myths.
In the advanced rider training I took a month or so back this exact scenario was part of the training. Often there's nothing a rider can do to avoid an accident - there's no "out". There's no time to stop fully. Too fast to simply swerve and avoid. So, the best course of action is to accept you're going to hit, but scrub as much speed as is physically possible right up to the moment of impact. Obviously hitting at a lower speed is better than a higher speed, your case in point.
So, the learning experience here? Practice threshold braking regularly - in your situation you walked away. In a similar situation from someone who didn't know or practice emergency braking, it would have been much worse.
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