New Rider - the ABS dilema

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CafeRay said:
ABS and TC is already on AMA racing. MotoGP bikes have TC. This poser, "too cool for ABS" attitude usually comes from people who end up making insurance crash statistics.
The roads are not a racetrack.
ABS will not get you around a track faster, you are still limited by tire grip.
Even now, insurance companies should give discounts for ABS bikes.

In case you want to learn something:

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Features/RideReports/AntiLockBraking.aspx

http://www.ridergroups.com/402/keith-code-motorcycle-technology-can-save-your-life/

....to sum it up Keith replaced the 600cc bikes he was using at the race school with the BMW S1000RR. The S1000RR is one of the fastest production sport bikes on the market, it is a rocket. So, new racing students + super fast bike = more motorcycle accidents, right? Not right, the S1000RR’s are equipped with ABS and Traction Control. The frequency of on track accidents have dropped DRAMATICALLY. All of this on a bike with loads more HP and speed potential than in the past. Read the article below for a full explanation from Keith.
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I don't understand. First you say the road is not a race track, and then you give a race track example in support of abs.

So, abs and tc can turn a public road into a race track because all the Ricky Racers out there are now safe to use public roads as race tracks, thanks to abs and tc.

Exactly why manufacturers are equipping so many high end powerful bikes, once the rarified place for experts only, with such electronics, so any moron with a big enough pocket book can buy one/ride one safely. Where are all the big profits made, on entry level 2/350 bikes with abs? Not quite. Oh, maybe in the servicing of those complicated systems with parts and labour they will make more money too even on the entry models.

Safety begins and ends with the rider, not the equipment.

Your brakes will never, always bail your *** out of a bad situation, abs or not. Just "grabing a handful" is not the answer. Just like TC is not the answer for a ham fisted throttle.

Electronics are replacing rider skills, it's just that simple. Considering the at times very difficult and expensive upkeep of these systems, and taking into consideration too that many riders out there believe in skill development and mastery of the forces and vissicitudes of piloting a two wheeler competently without on-board nannies and purposely eschew these devices out of a sense of being independent, free thinking, free willed individuals, which is what motorcyclists are supposed to be, i.e. anti conformists, abs should always remain *an option*.

Too bad so many idiots out there can't handle a bike, and need that all that ****, even on entry level models, to stay safe. If you can't handle the bike, you shouldn't be buying it.

Two wheels should always be resevered for the more competent, more passionate persons of our society who relish excellence, not any joker who can sign for a loan.
 
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With all this said. I actually would like to extoll the virtues of Traction Control.
With all the new snow around, I have been screwing around with my car's traction control.
I think BMW has a very complicated set up.

When cornering, it will allow the rear wheels to spin to maintain a certain amount of sideways drift. But once it gets to a certain angle, traction control kicks in.
Even when just taking off from a start, some rear wheel spin is allowed.

But what really gets me is the amount of traction I can actually get just in a straight line.
Turn the traction control off, and try to accelerate quickly.......Not bad.
Now, turn it back on and give it a try........AMAZING!!!!!!!
The amount of traction it finds is incredible. It surprises me every time.
 
Low rider said:
It will be a sad day when every production bike sold in Canada requires ABS.
I will say it now. If I am forced to buy a bike with ABS, I will rig a switch to disable it.
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Not sure about other brands, but with BMW you can simply turn it off. I would rather have the option then not. The only time I have turned off my ABS was in some very loose gravel and some moderate trail riding on a buddies farm. Dirt riders do not like ABS, and the bikes that are meant for it either do not have it or let you turn it off.
 
twinswin said:
I don't understand. First you say the road is not a race track, and then you give a race track example in support of abs.

So, abs and tc can turn a public road into a race track because all the Ricky Racers out there are now safe to use public roads as race tracks, thanks to abs and tc.

Exactly why manufacturers are equipping so many high end powerful bikes, once the rarified place for experts only, with such electronics, so any moron with a big enough pocket book can buy one/ride one safely. Where are all the big profits made, on entry level 2/350 bikes with abs? Not quite. Oh, maybe in the servicing of those complicated systems with parts and labour they will make more money too even on the entry models.

Safety begins and ends with the rider, not the equipment.

Your brakes will never, always bail your *** out of a bad situation, abs or not. Just "grabing a handful" is not the answer. Just like TC is not the answer for a ham fisted throttle.

Electronics are replacing rider skills, it's just that simple. Considering the at times very difficult and expensive upkeep of these systems, and taking into consideration too that many riders out there believe in skill development and mastery of the forces and vissicitudes of piloting a two wheeler competently without on-board nannies and purposely eschew these devices out of a sense of being independent, free thinking, free willed individuals, which is what motorcyclists are supposed to be, i.e. anti conformists, abs should always remain *an option*.

Too bad so many idiots out there can't handle a bike, and need that all that ****, even on entry level models, to stay safe. If you can't handle the bike, you shouldn't be buying it.

Two wheels should always be resevered for the more competent, more passionate persons of our society who relish excellence, not any joker who can sign for a loan.
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You Brough Superior riders? :p
 
Low rider said:
But what really gets me is the amount of traction I can actually get just in a straight line.
Turn the traction control off, and try to accelerate quickly.......Not bad.
Now, turn it back on and give it a try........AMAZING!!!!!!!
The amount of traction it finds is incredible. It surprises me every time.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing you have an open diff and the TC simulates an LSD by applying brake to the slipping wheel... Would be interesting to compare with a mechanical LSD.
 
I bought the car for other reasons than the traction control, so I did not research that end of it at all, So I have to admit I know nothing about it.
It is a 2010 BMW 323i
 
Baggsy said:
You Brough Superior riders? :p
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I'm think he's most likely not a Brough pilot, they'd be debating on why ABS when a cable pull single shoe brings you back to earth from your guaranteed ton up.
Now getting rid of a points ignition, there's progress.
 
crankcall said:
I'm think he's most likely not a Brough pilot, they'd be debating on why ABS when a cable pull single shoe brings you back to earth from your guaranteed ton up.
Now getting rid of a points ignition, there's progress.
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One of my bikes incorporates a steel rod to operate the rear shoe brakes that can be modulated very well, as well as a metal rocker arm and steel rod to retract the side stand when engaging the clutch lever. Both work very effectively, with no problems. Better than computerized hydraulic abs controlled brakes that need much more service attention and expensive parts, and better than electrical safety switches that inevitably burn out and need to be replaced. There's something to be said about simple, "elegant" mechanical systems that keep on working. ;)
 
I agree.


twinswin said:
One of my bikes incorporates a steel rod to operate the rear shoe brakes that can be modulated very well, as well as a metal rocker arm and steel rod to retract the side stand when engaging the clutch lever. Both work very effectively, with no problems. Better than computerized hydraulic abs controlled brakes that need much more service attention and expensive parts, and better than electrical safety switches that inevitably burn out and need to be replaced. There's something to be said about simple, "elegant" mechanical systems that keep on working. ;)
Click to expand...
 
twinswin said:
Two wheels should always be resevered for the more competent, more passionate persons of our society who relish excellence, not any joker who can sign for a loan.
Click to expand...

That would end a century of tradition if it were to become reality.
 
I remember my instructor was complaining about the old ABS on BMW motorcycles when brought up ABS on the Ninja 300s but said the new system is a lot more reliable and better off for rain driving. I'd say if you're going to be riding out in the rain might as well but most people don't spend the extra $500 for it from what my local dealer told me.
 
On cars the ABS only activates when you're in the process of locking it up. At that point you're probably about to, or are already sliding. If the bike version functions the same way, then no harm done imho since it might be helpful for sudden surprises.
 
A few yrs ago, we took two new CBR600's.
One with ABS, and one without.
In an empty, large parking lot, measured braking distances from 100-0 kmh.

After 31 yrs of continuous riding, I consider myself to be above average in the skill department (don't we all?, LMAO)
It took me 6 or 7 tries to get a shorter stopping distance on the regular bike, than I did on my very first try on the ABS bike......and the stops on the regular bike varied in distance by a large margin. I was surprised at how un-repeatable the distances were, but aboard the ABS bike, I was able to get within a foot of my last stop each and every time. It was very consistent.

Recap-dry testing-In the dry, it took many tries to get a better stopping distance on the regular bike than the ABS bike, and even then, it was only marginally better (half a foot if I recall). And my very first ABS stop beat 90% of my non-ABS stops.



Then we brought out 5 gallon pails of soapy water, and poured the mixture on the parking lot, and at lower speed (50 kmh), we tried to stop as hard as we dared and measured the distance. On the regular bike, we stopped like any seasoned rider would, presuambly modulating the brake lever just before the point of lockup, trying to threshold brake. Whether you are actually on that limit would require, at the very least, momentarily locking the front wheel. Needless to say, most of us had the cojones to actually take it that far, so we stopped as fast as we thought we could. One rider actually locked the wheel and fell.

Then we hopped on the ABS bike, and it took many tries to get a decent stop-because we, as sensible and seasoned riders have spent yrs of training ourselves to understand that any hard and abrupt application of the brakes on wet roads is a recipe for disaster. The HOnda rep assured us as to how good the system was, and told us to set our brains aside for a minute, and literally pull the lever to the grip-full force. When I convinced myself to do it, as uncomfortable and against everything I had known to date, I did, and was able to stop almost in half the distance of my best non-ABS stop on the wet pad. And there was zero drama associated with it. Just a smooth, strong stop. Honda's new system didn't pulse or anything. It was that awesome. It is completely transparent, and I was astonished at how much braking it could allow me to comfortably use in the wet.


Recap- wet testing- No where close. The ABS will give you your very best stop, every time, and there is no way to come anywhere close on the regular bike, and trying to would likely result in a lowside. The ABS allowed a comfortable stopping distance WAY WAY shorter (almost half) distance than what felt comfortable on the regular bike.



I Have ridden just about everything, and have been roadracing for a couple yrs now. If I wers shopping for bikes, and the one I was interested was available with ABS, I would undoubtedly buy the ABS version, street or track. When a corner has gravel strewn across it midcorner, or a deer runs out in front of you, or you hit a wet manhole cover while braking for a stoplight, the added cost of ABS (usually $1000ish) is negated after only one saved crash. Assuming the rider is unhurt, just one slow speed fall will likely cost more than $1000 in repairs to bike and riding gear anyways. When riding on the streets especially, you don't get 3, 4 even 5 tries at stopping for that unseen danger-you get one, and only one. It has to be your best braking every time in an emergency. Can you be sure you are on top of your game each and every time you might encounter danger? |You only get one shot at it.
 
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Well said. And BTW, the new(ish) Bosch systems are well advanced on the Honda system, as well as literally 15lbs lighter. It's found (at least) on the 2014 MV Agusta F3 800 / F4, the Ducati 1199/899/Multistrada/1200, BMW S1000RR, Aprilia Tuono / RSV4 / Caponord, and mostly likely others. In most of the supersport bikes, it offers rear wheel lift mitigation and on some other options like race mode (S1000RR/Tuono/RSV4/F3/F4) and bubble-wrap rain mode which has a "tip-over" system that detects when a lowside is likely to occur and attempts to deal with it.

Laverty and Guintoli lapped within a second of a bike not equipped with ABS during Aprilia's testing. If you're faster than those guys, maybe ABS isn't your thing...
 
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Omnivore: Fantastic real-world test. Thanks for sharing, this confirms that it is a good option to have if it is available.

It's a pity all the older bikes can't get this retrofitted.
 
I wonder why kawis kit ecu disables the abs? Maybe the other manufacturers setups are better? I can definitely see the advantage in the rain and on a street bike.
 
dricked said:
I wonder why kawis kit ecu disables the abs? Maybe the other manufacturers setups are better? I can definitely see the advantage in the rain and on a street bike.
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I think that's it exactly. The Bosch 9MP system is now the benchmark.
 
twinswin said:
One of my bikes incorporates a steel rod to operate the rear shoe brakes that can be modulated very well, as well as a metal rocker arm and steel rod to retract the side stand when engaging the clutch lever. Both work very effectively, with no problems. Better than computerized hydraulic abs controlled brakes that need much more service attention and expensive parts, and better than electrical safety switches that inevitably burn out and need to be replaced. There's something to be said about simple, "elegant" mechanical systems that keep on working. ;)
Click to expand...

My old bike's Drum brakes never locked up :D That being said, the bike could get you into trouble much faster than it could get you out of it. I like my new bike's ABS, and disc brakes.
 
Sunspark said:
Omnivore: Fantastic real-world test. Thanks for sharing, this confirms that it is a good option to have if it is available.

It's a pity all the older bikes can't get this retrofitted.
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Like aftermarket traction control, it would be the cat's meow to be able to buy ABS and retrofit it. However, no company's lawyers are going to want to be on the hook for their system being installed by someone else, on a bike that they've never seen, didn't witness the install procedure, and have no idea how it's being used. The lawsuit potential of any failure is huge.
 
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