My first speeding ticket | GTAMotorcycle.com

My first speeding ticket

Golluk

Well-known member
Since my trial is coming up very shortly, I figured I'd post up the information I have on it now before I post the conclusion after trial.

I was charged with going 15 over (reduced) in a 90. It was an unmarked police car, using its rear facing radar (Stalker DSR 2X). The officer claimed my actual speed was 24 over. There wasn't much to the conversation, and I kept my answers mostly to "ok".

Disclosure was first requested back in November, offense was in September. I had attempted to put in a disclosure form like firestart suggests, but the best I could get was for the clerk to sign mine after filling out the standard request form. Later in march, after calling in twice to see if disclosure was ready, and on advice from a para legal, I handed in another request, this time the clerk did agree to take it, though they tried to get the disclosure clerk first, who was gone on lunch. I was finally called and told my disclosure was ready for pick up 4 days before trial.

Disclosure included a copy of the officers notes (plus typed), his business card, and the testing section for the radar used. Also a copy of the office disclosure form I submitted back in November. Here is the typed officers notes:
"
Hi melody, just back from Holidays. Here is what they say;

Clear Dry
veh ###
unit ####
Stalker Dsr 2x
Stationary Northbound, east shoulder at green hill
Vehicle lane 2 high rate of speed (only) northbound
Rear Stationary closing at 111 in a 90
driver is registered owner, valid at king street ramp
MC suzuki @@@@@

one rider.
"

Seems he deals with disclosure requests a fair bit. There are two things I find interesting about the notes, the speed he claimed I was going was 24 over, yet his radar only registered 21 over. Also, it seems to say I was the only vehicle, yet I clearly remember another vehicle in the left lane ahead of me, which moved into the right lane before we passed the unmarked vehicle. Of course both matter little, and trying to prove another vehicle when its my word and notes against his notes would be next to impossible.

After talking with a para legal I've used before, he said my only hope is on a technicality, but I should avoid any actual trial. Either get it dismissed before, get an adjournment, or just plead guilty to avoid the amended up fine and points.

Afterward I will post my defense strategy, how talking with the prosecutor goes, and hopefully a good outcome. After sitting in court, it seems like more fun than anything, but I had already accepted I'd likely be paying a ticket. Para legal will be down there for other cases and said I could ask from him if needed.
 
A couple of issues, but all's not lost.
1) NEVER go to submit the request in person. The reason they ask you to fill in that stupid form is to let them off for dumping an incomplete disclosure package on you. Always fax and save transmission receipts.
2) 4 days is nowhere near enough time to prepare for your trial. You should ask for an adjournment because the Crown gave you disclosure with insufficient time to prepare for your trial. Hell, you should have faxed in your 4F a month before the trial. Your argument should be along the lines of "Your worship, I respectfully request an adjournment because the Crown only had my disclosure package ready 4 days before the trial. That is nowhere near enough time for me to prepare my defense. While the Crown gets paid to review these cases, I have a full-time job, a home a family and no legal education, so 4 days is just plain insufficient. I would like to schedule a court date as soon as possible, but will need at least a week to properly review the Crown's evidence" [You are setting up an 11b argument because the next court date won't be for several months and you are making sure that the guilty party - the Crown, gets blamed for it]
That is assuming that the cop shows up. Otherwise, you're present and ready ;)
 
I just want to ask which court you are dealing with, because I haven't heard before of the clerk not accepting a disclosure request, regardless of the format.

And everybody has to go on holidays. However, if you got disclosure so late because someone was on holidays, it is only fair to request for an adjournment as posted above. (I am assuming that the words "Hi melody, just back from Holidays. Here is what they say; " are in the disclosure you got).

You can ask to reschedule the court saying that you need legal advice (from your paralegal or lawyer), and 4 days was not enough to get it (because he or you were busy, or on holidays!). LOL

All JPs or judges will consider the request to adjourn if the defendant is asking for legal advice...
 
It's not even about asking for legal advice. It's about not having enough time to review the disclosure package.
By the way, they have tried to pull that on me at the York Civic Center (so that's as Toronto as it gets). I ended up faxing it in instead. Even though I failed to file my 4F on time, they notified the prosecutor that I had sent in my disclosure request and that they never provided me with one.
By the way, don't give them your phone number on the disclosure request. Why allow them to make you drive all the way to the court house, waste your time and pay for parking fees when they can just mail it in?
 
Yeah, in future I won't have my phone number, but they had it when I originally requested disclosure, I've learned alot since. The funny thing is when they called to let me know it was ready, they said they couldn't mail it to me in time, so I'd have to pick it up, or they could e-mail me my disclosure. She was a little surprised when I said I hadn't gotten anything yet, but decided she could scan and e-mail the radar stuff as well. Infact she seemed to prefer just e-mailing it to me. I choose to pick it up in person.

I really didn't mind going in to pick it up either, parking cost me 25 cents, and I wanted to go watch some trails anyways.

I know I mentioned the 4F form to the paralegal, but I think the short of it was it wasn't really necessary, although I don't recall clearly.

So is having 3 points any real issue when I've gone 8 years without any? Trying to decide if the increased amended fine is worth the cost of getting to try defending myself in court. It kinda looks fun when your expecting to be found guilty anyways. I like a challenge.
 
Points don't matter.. If you're in the 3 demerit range, it's still considered a "minor conviction." There's zero difference to the insurance industry between the original speed and the reduced speed. Since you already went through all this trouble, you might as well go for broke. The monetary difference is minor and you can gain a lot by scrapping with'em. You should have just had them e-mail you the disclosure package to a disposable e-mail account. That way, you have a time stamp of when you received it. Another option would have been saying "I am sorry, but I don't have an e-mail address and I can't make it in to court in the next 4 days." If they are already jerking you around, you might as well jerk back.
By the way, once your case gets adjourned to a later date, if the JP screws you over for 11b, take up as much court time as you can get away with. Help other people get off on 11b. Done that before when I got thrown into a kangaroo courtroom. My case took over an hour.. Had I known better at the time, I would have still appealed as the JP's misinterpretation of the law made it into the official transcripts.
 
...how talking with the prosecutor goes...
Congratulations on your first speeding ticket. May this be the first of many, all without convictions.

Remember, the prosecutor WILL LIE TO YOUR FACE on trial day and tell you the cop is there when really they aren't! So don't go in saying to yourself "ok, if the cop isn't here, I get off. If he's here, I'll take a plea."

Like you said, it's kinda fun. NEVER EVER TAKE A PLEA! And I mean EVER. It doesn't matter what they threaten you with, trust me when I say this. Even if they threaten to "amend up" the ticket to the original speed, don't take the deal!

As FS said, ask super politely for an adjournment to the next soonest possible date in order to give you sufficient time to prepare a defense because disclosure was not delivered to you in adequate time. The JP might ask you a trick question like "their disclosure is only three pages, what possibly do you need more time to prepare your defense for?" Then throw in the stuff FS said about family, work and no legal training, need more time to research, etc.

I would avoid saying you are seeking legal advice or representation as I've heard them ask the person "What steps have you taken so far to get legal advice or representation?" and when the person stutters, no adjournment for you, TRIAL NOW!

It's good to sit in the courtroom and listen to peoples defenses and learn what not to do. Unfortunately only about 1% of the people a) are prepared and b) don't take the plea deal :( So you have to sit there for a while to see a "good" defense.

I clearly remember another vehicle in the left lane ahead of me, which moved into the right lane before we passed the unmarked vehicle.
Are you saying that there is a possibility that the car in the lane to the right of you was between you and the cop when you passed his vehicle? Like the cop was on the far right shoulder? Unfortunately it's your word against the cops, but DAMN sure I'd be pushing that it was the other car he had on radar. The Stalker DSR 2X has a 12 degree beam width on the 45degree sensor on the back window. I can draw your situation in AutoCAD with the 12 degree beam width shown as a cone overlaying the traffic situation. 12 degrees is HUGE, more then enough room for the car and your bike, and NO, the radar does NOT distinguish between two targets on similar angles, in fact, if the car was between you and the cop then the car creates a MASSIVE "shadow" where the radar is "blind" and would have only read the car's speed!!

-Jamie M.
 
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I'll clear up the vehicle positions. I was in the right lane, after just getting on the freeway. There was another pick-up passing me in the left, which I came up to speed with, but was always behind. Both of us came around the bend and started to slow a bit, and the pick up moved over into the right lane halfway to the cop sitting on the right shoulder. we both passed the cop in the right lane with the pick up in front of me by about 20 feet or so. From entering the freeway to passing the cop, about 40 seconds. 20 seconds to come into view of the cop.
 
Hmmm tricky. I'll draw up some animations and do some radar calculations and send you a PM and you can let me know if I got it right. 20ft might have been enough for him to get you both as separate targets.

-Jamie M.
 
Hopefully, this is your last speeding ticket. Why volunteer your time in court for free, when you could be having fun or making money?
 
Hopefully, this is your last speeding ticket.
If this is his last speeding ticket, one would assume he's caved in and is now doing the speed limit, and that's not just uncool, it's unsafe!

That's what I meant by hopefully it's not his last. Live fast and live free. A little time in court is the tax you pay for having fun =)

-Jamie M.
 
If this is his last speeding ticket, one would assume he's caved in and is now doing the speed limit, and that's not just uncool, it's unsafe!

That's what I meant by hopefully it's not his last. Live fast and live free. A little time in court is the tax you pay for having fun =)

-Jamie M.

Well, its your time. If you want to spend it running around for court dates, who am I to stop you.

If you want to be the centre of attention on the highway, I'm game. I'll just consider you a highly effective police detector.
 
Oh come on baggsy, I'm by no means an aggressive speeder in area's you shouldn't, or are likely to get caught. There was one other vehicle, which I was going the same speed with, I had just entered onto the freeway, and was about to check my speed precisely because of speed traps ahead. He just happened to be sitting higher up on the hill.

As for court time, there is a reason they make shows out of this stuff. Today was just getting an adjournment, prosecutor and JP had no issues, reasons due to requesting additional disclosure, after only receiving disclosure 1 business day prior. The officer who charged me was there.

It seems he's one of the reasonable ones, another man in his 60's was there, same officer caught him doing 70ish in a 50. He explained himself to the prosecutor (didn't hear what), and when he was called up, prosecutor said the officer had withdrawn the charge, he was off the hook. Oh well, can't know that at the road side, and I'm not in my 60's. I'll have another 2 months or so to finish up my defense and get the rest of my disclosure now.

As for other cases I watched, had 2 younger guys there for possession of open alcohol in a public place, they both defended themselves. Both essentially claimed that while they did have alcohol on them, it was closed and in their pocket. And they ditched it when they saw the police take notice of their group. Officer saw both ditch the booze, and the one drink (moosehead one, bottle of vodka other). They asked about 3-5 questions of the officer, didn't get them anywhere. Both convicted and 105 in fines.

Then their was one para legal who had 5 cases for our court, but he was still off in another courtroom with a trail, which all they said would be a while, as he was still bringing up witnesses. JP was getting a little peeved over having to wait on the guy with no eta. Court went into recess. So I went and watched the end of that one.

Guy was in an accident from making a left turn into a private driveway/business, hit/was hit by another car. By the time the accident investigator officer showed up, the other car was gone for some reason. Officer takes a statement, gets it signed, and then charges the defendant, unsafe left turn.

The para legal basically got the defendant to say he felt he had to give the statement, and he was an aware he didn't have too, didn't think he could get charged over it. Prosecutor tried to argue he wasn't in the back of the cruiser at the time, and the officer wasn't being threatening, so he could have walked away at any time (sure.... lets walk from an officer investigating my accident. That'll go over well.) Statement was disallowed, prosecutor asked for the case to be dismissed almost right after as they had no other evidence. I was rather shocked that worked. Kinda wish I grabbed his card.

There was other minor interesting cases, but both with defendants not there, represented. Oh, mandarin speaking defendant got an agent to represent him, who also only spoke mandarin. They requested a translator, but he had to cancel as he was called to a murder trial. So now its going for its 4th court date.

I cleared up what lane 2 means with the officer while I was there, counts from the inside out, so lane 2 is the right hand lane. All I'm left wondering is if Hamilton police service requires or has a testing procedure for the mounted radar units. I'll get that in further disclosure.

Money case to conclude. Some guy went from the right lane, into the left, overtook my officer in his nice stealth cruiser (you can't tell with this one), half signed his change back into the right lane, cutting off the officer and making him brake, braked himself (officer brakes harder), and went into a right turn lane (likely a double lane change, in front of and cutting off a police officer). The charge for him not putting the license renewal sticker on his ownership, as well as the plate was dismissed, but he still got hit for unsafe lane change.

How well would bringing up the fact that in a previous trail, the officer stated he could not estimate the speed of a vehicle, as he did not have his radar operating. Aren't they supposed to be trained for that? And radar is only supposed to confirm their estimation of speed? I think their gonna love me, I have 3 pages of questions to go through.
 
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I was more responding to Jamie's statements about having fun by living fast.
I know some people who spend an inordinate amount of time fighting traffic tickets who aren't para legals.
Sitting in court isn't my idea of fun is all.
If someone has a need for speed and adrenaline, I would think that sky diving would be a thrill.
 
How well would bringing up the fact that in a previous trail, the officer stated he could not estimate the speed of a vehicle, as he did not have his radar operating. Aren't they supposed to be trained for that? And radar is only supposed to confirm their estimation of speed? I think their gonna love me, I have 3 pages of questions to go through.

Whether or not they are trained in visual estimation of speed isn't material as only speed measurement device (LASER/RADAR), pacing, or measurement between two known fixed points are considered valid evidence of speed.
 
Congratulations on your first speeding ticket. May this be the first of many, all without convictions.

Remember, the prosecutor WILL LIE TO YOUR FACE on trial day and tell you the cop is there when really they aren't! So don't go in saying to yourself "ok, if the cop isn't here, I get off. If he's here, I'll take a plea."

Like you said, it's kinda fun. NEVER EVER TAKE A PLEA! And I mean EVER. It doesn't matter what they threaten you with, trust me when I say this. Even if they threaten to "amend up" the ticket to the original speed, don't take the deal!

As FS said, ask super politely for an adjournment to the next soonest possible date in order to give you sufficient time to prepare a defense because disclosure was not delivered to you in adequate time. The JP might ask you a trick question like "their disclosure is only three pages, what possibly do you need more time to prepare your defense for?" Then throw in the stuff FS said about family, work and no legal training, need more time to research, etc.

I would avoid saying you are seeking legal advice or representation as I've heard them ask the person "What steps have you taken so far to get legal advice or representation?" and when the person stutters, no adjournment for you, TRIAL NOW!

It's good to sit in the courtroom and listen to peoples defenses and learn what not to do. Unfortunately only about 1% of the people a) are prepared and b) don't take the plea deal :( So you have to sit there for a while to see a "good" defense.

Are you saying that there is a possibility that the car in the lane to the right of you was between you and the cop when you passed his vehicle? Like the cop was on the far right shoulder? Unfortunately it's your word against the cops, but DAMN sure I'd be pushing that it was the other car he had on radar. The Stalker DSR 2X has a 12 degree beam width on the 45degree sensor on the back window. I can draw your situation in AutoCAD with the 12 degree beam width shown as a cone overlaying the traffic situation. 12 degrees is HUGE, more then enough room for the car and your bike, and NO, the radar does NOT distinguish between two targets on similar angles, in fact, if the car was between you and the cop then the car creates a MASSIVE "shadow" where the radar is "blind" and would have only read the car's speed!!

-Jamie M.

This is not entirely accurate, if the officer had the "Faster" feature activated; the radar will pick up the vehicle behind if it is travelling at a faster rate then the car in front.
 
This is not entirely accurate, if the officer had the "Faster" feature activated; the radar will pick up the vehicle behind if it is travelling at a faster rate then the car in front.

I think that is not entirely accurate - I understand that the feature that you are referring to works only when the vehicles are the same size (all cars or all trucks). Between a car and a motorcycle traveling behind each other in a single lane, the radar will pick up only the car's speed.
 
If you could find me a solid source for that info, that would be awesome. However I really don't see why the radar could only distinguish between signal strengths due to distance, and not size too. I don't recall ever being directly behind the second car as the radar would see it, just behind and to the side a bit.

It would be handy to have a list you can just check off to see if the evidence has any holes in it, based on defenses that have worked in the past. I know of a few for sure, but others I'm not positive on.

After things get less hectic I'll work on my defense and trial notes more, then have a defense lawyer have a look over it. He's an acquaintance of my dad, and offered to look my case over for next to free. It will only be a fun learning experience if I'm actually effective with my defense. I don't want to look like the other self defenders I've seen so far.
 
I don't want to look like the other self defenders I've seen so far.

You wanna look like me last time around.. The prosecutor kept referring to "my client" until she finally figured out that I was representing myself :cool:
 

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