Maybe there would be less motorcycle deaths if the our speed limits were reasonable

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Prince said:
Last weekend four people came here from Quebec to have a day at Wasaga beach. They lit up a joint on the beach and got nailed by the OPP. They were given a ticket for the joint and had to appear in court in Collingwood. They decided to bail for home (Quebec), and on the way hit a transition zone down to 50 (from 80) where another OPP prick was waiting for easy 172 charges...and yes, they were doing 101 KPH. They got a HTA172 stunting charge (they didn't even know what that was) and their vehicle seized. They must be thinking why the hell did we come to this place...Ontario? Never before in the history of Ontario have cops been so hated. And as such they lose their greatest resource, the help/aid of the public. No one will talk to them or help them anymore as they're seen as the enemy.
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Your right quebec doesnt have laws.

Wait yes it does.
 
mlc said:
So, why do people assume that speeding fines will deter speeding?
People will continue to drive at speed, regardless of the punishment.
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I can tell you that after driving 160-180kmh on 400 series highways for 20 years, I never drive over 150 now.
 
invictus43 said:
I can tell you that after driving 160-180kmh on 400 series highways for 20 years, I never drive over 150 now.
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Then, you good sir, are a speeder, and have not been deterred from speeding.

For the sake of those who believe it important, I do agree you have chosen to now speed by <50kph on the 400 series highways.

For the record, during your 20 years of speeding by 60 to 80 kph, how many fatalities were you involved in?
 
mlc said:
Then, you good sir, are a speeder, and have not been deterred from speeding.

For the sake of those who believe it important, I do agree you have chosen to now speed by <50kph on the 400 series highways.

For the record, during your 20 years of speeding by 60 to 80 kph, how many fatalities were you involved in?
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Uhh.. he was detered from going over 50 over the limit... thats the point of HTA 172, what he is saying is that the legisation affected his behavior. Which completely counters what you were saying about how speeding fines doesn't deter speeding, because it clearly does.
 
turbodish said:
I have read the Fallen Riders section. I have also read the various police and media reports on most of the crashes in that section. Excess speed is a causation or aggravating factor in many of those crashes.
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Then, and I'm begging you man, tell me who is being deterred from speeding by larger fines!!!!!!!!!!
 
mlc said:
Then, and I'm begging you man, tell me who is being deterred from speeding by larger fines!!!!!!!!!!
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Invictus43 for one. How many names would you like?

Besides, excessive speed doesn't need to be just 50+ kmph over the limit. Excessive speed could easily be weaving and lane-splitting through traffic doing 100 kmph in a 100 kmph zone when the rest of traffic is doing only 50.
 
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mlc said:
For the record, during your 20 years of speeding by 60 to 80 kph, how many fatalities were you involved in?
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Zero! :-) Zero collisions as well actually. But...the new rules involved with the 50 over stuff was sufficient to deter me from speeding 50 over. Before the 50 over, it was just a fine..yeah, a big hit, but just a fine. If you have money (which a lot of people do..) it's not much of a problem. However..50 over is now much more serious and, at least for me, it's worked.
 
You know, just to throw it out there..I think the focus on speeding and enforcement in the last 20 years..1993 or 1994 was the tipping point for me..I think this has lead to the increase in track day outings. For me, track days have exploded in the last 10 years..and I think it's primarily for people who are interested in having fun without risking criminal charges. So yeah, I think we can measure the changes that increased consequences have had.
 
01cbr said:
Your right quebec doesnt have laws.Wait yes it does.
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They won't bust you in Quebec for having a joint.

They won't seize your car in Quebec for doing 50 over.
 
Prince said:
They won't bust you in Quebec for having a joint.

They won't seize your car in Quebec for doing 50 over.
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Quebec has its share of speeding infactions. They will pull you over and yes they will bust you for a joint. Have you actually been there? These things I know 100%.
 
01cbr said:
Quebec has its share of speeding infactions. They will pull you over and yes they will bust you for a joint. Have you actually been there? These things I know 100%.
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Quebec will also impound your car for speeding 40 kmph over in a 60 kmph zone, and their impounds are for 30 days.
 
turbodish said:
Invictus43 for one. How many names would you like?
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You're trolling me, right?

If one only speeds <49 kph over the LEGAL speed limit, one is SPEEDING.

I'll bet you a shiny new nickle that people are SPEEDING on the 400 series highways right now. Would you say that 130 kph is about average?

I submit that people do not stop speeding as a result of speeding fines. That is why many people receive more than one speeding fine. That is why every day I observe people speeding. Correct me if I am wrong, but I suspect,every day, you see people speeding. People are experiencing single vehicle collisions, which you assert are caused primarily by speeding. Increasing fines can not, in itself, combat speeding.

There are OPP, State Troopers, local cops, cops in planes and helicopters, writing speeding fines all over North America. To the best of my knowledge, the amounts of the fines have not become lesser in value throughout history, but only increase. And yet, people still speed.

I have read locally where people receive about one ticket per year, and then some fight those tickets. But they still speed.

There is a legal section on this board where I have read people admit to speeding, and ask how they can avoid the fine. Yet, they were speeding.

If the goal of speeds limits and fines and demerit points is to slow down drivers to the speed limit that has been claimed to be the safest speed at which to travel, I can not label the system a success, because it simply does not do what it is intended to do.

But, I guess it's the best we can do, right?
 
mlc said:
You're trolling me, right?

If one only speeds <49 kph over the LEGAL speed limit, one is SPEEDING.

I'll bet you a shiny new nickle that people are SPEEDING on the 400 series highways right now. Would you say that 130 kph is about average?

I submit that people do not stop speeding as a result of speeding fines. That is why many people receive more than one speeding fine. That is why every day I observe people speeding. Correct me if I am wrong, but I suspect,every day, you see people speeding. People are experiencing single vehicle collisions, which you assert are caused primarily by speeding. Increasing fines can not, in itself, combat speeding.

There are OPP, State Troopers, local cops, cops in planes and helicopters, writing speeding fines all over North America. To the best of my knowledge, the amounts of the fines have not become lesser in value throughout history, but only increase. And yet, people still speed.

I have read locally where people receive about one ticket per year, and then some fight those tickets. But they still speed.

There is a legal section on this board where I have read people admit to speeding, and ask how they can avoid the fine. Yet, they were speeding.

If the goal of speeds limits and fines and demerit points is to slow down drivers to the speed limit that has been claimed to be the safest speed at which to travel, I can not label the system a success, because it simply does not do what it is intended to do.

But, I guess it's the best we can do, right?
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No one is trolling you, you are simply not making sense.

both myself and invictus have told you that they specifically slow down because of speeding fines, namely HTA 172.

HTA 172 kicks at in the 50 over mark. it would not ( and should not ) have an effect on people going 10 over, 5 over.

If you applied the HTA 172 penalties to a rate of speed lower than + 50 over, you will see a marked reduction in the amount of people travelling at that rate of speed.

I actually don't see how this is at all controversial, it seems to be a very basic point.

All you are really saying is that the penalty for going 1 km over the speed limit isn't high enough to stop people from speeding (thats pretty much done on purpose). Are you saying that we should apply HTA 172 to going 1 km over?
 
Brian P said:
But, most of Quebec's rural highways have 90 km/h speed limits - not 80.
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Also, they have 40km/h on school zones from sometime September to sometime June or if it is after X pm then the time of the year doesnt matter, it is just 55km/h (?) - could be 50.
 
 
I think what mlc is saying is very clear and to a certain extent true. He's not saying that HTA172 didn't deter some people from driving 50 over, but rather that even though there are speed limits, people still speed.

That's because people will drive at a pace they are comfortable with and 120-130kph on the highway is safe and it is what most people do and therefore the speed limits are too low, because engineering test have shown that we should have limits at the 80% range of speed.

Like I said - in some places people usually do 20-30 over, even in rural 50 zones that should be 80. Then the same people drive 20 under in an 80 zone because they don't feel safer driving AT the speed limit. IT'S THE SAME PEOPLE!!!! It's not like you're a lunatic on one road and a dopey pants on the other. It's just that speed limits often do not reflect what they should be, BECAUSE THEY ARE SET BY PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW SQUAT ABOUT TRAFFIC ENGINEERING..... and THAT is a safety hazard.
 
^^ Don't forget that we have a wide variation in climate.

So although 100KMH looks too slow on a nice summer day it's probably too high in a snow storm at 3am. Rather than go to the expense of having signs that change the speed limit with conditions, everybody seems to understand that, if all is well, you can safely travel 120KMH on the 400 series of highways without getting tagged.

I think it works fine.
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