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Mapping/power commanders

CO2 regulations haven't been applied to motorcycles (yet). Fuel consumption isn't a consideration.

One of the consequences of "dieselgate" is that there is increasing focus on "real driving emissions". It used to be that if you passed the official test procedure, you were good to go. Then came the VW (and other) diesel shenanigans. Then came "real driving emissions". All gasoline engines historically, and particularly highly tuned engines, run rich under load. The "real driving emissions" means the emission strategy has to function over a much bigger operating range. Means leaning it out so that the catalyst still functions. Not a recipe for making max power. I don't know how much this plays into the motorcycle Euro 5 standard, but it's certainly a factor in automotive emission standards.

If the catalyst is far enough down the exhaust pipe to not overheat at full load, it might need help at light-load part-throttle cruise to keep it hot enough to work. There are certain strategies used for keeping catalysts hot that aren't great for fuel consumption.

You know the much discussed "deceleration fuel cut"? What happens to the catalyst when you're coasting down a hill? It cools off. Then what happens when you take up the throttle again? A puff of untreated exhaust (complete with CO, HC, and NOx) until the catalyst gets back up to the right temperature. So, what does the OEM do? Squirts in a little bit of fuel anyhow, to keep the catalyst hot ...

A lot of those emission test procedures are done at very light engine load on a high-performance vehicle. When you have a 200 hp bike and you have a test procedure that is the same for all vehicles including a 900cc Fiat Panda non-turbo, that engine will do the whole test making no more than 10 horsepower. Not good for keeping the catalyst hot. So, what do you do? Delay the ignition timing to raise the exhaust temperature. Bye-bye fuel economy.

Redesigning the engine to cope with this without bad fuel consumption is possible (auto engines have done it) but not necessarily while maintaining absolute maximum possible power output per litre of displacement.
 
So the question is: are we actually achieving our goal of minimising damaging emissions (of any kind) with these regulations, or have they traded one kind of problem (lower CO, NOx, HC) in exchange for another (higher CO2)?

Using real driving emissions would seem to be an ideal approach, but only if you're measuring the total package, not just a select few metrics...
 
You wouldn't like a motorcycle with an engine designed totally for emission control and low fuel consumption. That Honda 700cc forgettable thing that was half of a Honda Jazz/Fit car engine comes to mind - the one with the 6500 rpm redline. The catalyst needs to be close-coupled to the engine (no more "header pipes" in the exhaust system) so that it heats up quickly. In the automotive world, a lot of the time the exhaust manifold is built into the cylinder head and the catalyst is practically bolted directly to its outlet. Doing it that way lets it heat up quickly but also allows the engine's cooling system to take some heat out of the exhaust to not overheat it under load, and it helps the engine warm up faster ... but it also means more cooling load to the radiator (not good in a motorcycle application). High compression, high-turbulence fast-burn combustion ... but doing this requires a long stroke so that the combustion chamber isn't a nasty flat-pancake shape. Not good for high revs. Direct-injection helps, but that has RPM restrictions, too.

One of the motivations for going all-electric is that it gets the regulators off the backs of the vehicle manufacturers. No more stupid stuff like restricting power at a certain RPM to pass a certain exhaust noise test, either. It will be different but I think it will be okay.
 
The DN-01 ( Do Not Own One) ?
I took one for a test ride. I wanted off before we even got out of the parking lot. The least fun bike I have ever ridden. Just when it starts to think about moving you bang the limiter. Yuck. I don't care if it had great fuel mileage, a bike is supposed to be fun.
 
I took one for a test ride. I wanted off before we even got out of the parking lot. The least fun bike I have ever ridden. Just when it starts to think about moving you bang the limiter. Yuck. I don't care if it had great fuel mileage, a bike is supposed to be fun.
I had one for a weekend - uninspiring doesn't begin to describe. It leant a whole new dimension to the term boring.
 
You wouldn't like a motorcycle with an engine designed totally for emission control and low fuel consumption. That Honda 700cc forgettable thing that was half of a Honda Jazz/Fit car engine comes to mind - the one with the 6500 rpm redline.

To be honest, I don't know if I would hate something built to be environmentally friendly if fun was still part of the design brief. Starting from the position that climate change is a very real threat (certainly not a 'debate' I want to trigger here), I'm curious what a bike would look like that actually was built to be the best emissions and consumption compromise, rather than just to meet some borderline arbitrary metrics that can't possibly cover all scenarios.

While the NC700 (the half a Fit bike) was dull, it was also supremely practical. I'd like to see someone build a 750ish displacement bike with 80-100 wheel hp, a fairly flat torque curve, less than 450 lbs wet, and with decent fueling. Starting from that design brief, then work back to make it as green as possible and see what the result is.

I'd be curious what could be done with good intentions vs just hitting emissions targets at prescribed rpms to satisfy a standard. I'm sure nobody would buy it because whoever built it would market it terribly, but I think there's an appetite for something simultaneously fun and environmentally friendly. Especially if you want to capture the imagination of folks under 30. The old farts might be climate denialists, but the kids sure aren't...
 
So I stopped by Pro 6 Cycle earlier this evening as I was in the area.
They were kind enough to accommodate me even though I showed up at their doorstep without an appointment (Covid - appointments only at this time) - my bad.

They recommended I stay away from ECU reflashing and stick with purchasing a Power Commander unit instead (claimed that it offered more tuning options?)
Flat rate Dyno time of $400 for the day and 1 hour of labour to install the unit (I believe it just plugs into the ECU directly - no having to piggyback onto the injectors and sensors across the bike like the Rapid Bike unit does).
All in all I was looking at something around the range of $1200- $1500.

Then spoke to Champion Cycle around an hour later.
They didnt push me to use any specific product like a Power Commander and such.
Even gave me the option of purchasing a woolich license from them for $300 + a flate rate for the dyno at $500 for the day.


After reading comments on this thread I'm leaning towards an ECU reflash anyways...may as well get a quick shifter installed/programmed as well if I decide to go this route.

Looking to see what you decide to go with bigpoppa - figure if you have an awesome experience with a particular shop then it would be good to know.
Both Pro 6 Cycle and Champion Cycle had the same rating on Google.
Think I'll stay away from Riders Choice for something like this...
 
So I stopped by Pro 6 Cycle earlier this evening as I was in the area.
They were kind enough to accommodate me even though I showed up at their doorstep without an appointment (Covid - appointments only at this time) - my bad.

They recommended I stay away from ECU reflashing and stick with purchasing a Power Commander unit instead (claimed that it offered more tuning options?)
Flat rate Dyno time of $400 for the day and 1 hour of labour to install the unit (I believe it just plugs into the ECU directly - no having to piggyback onto the injectors and sensors across the bike like the Rapid Bike unit does).
All in all I was looking at something around the range of $1200- $1500.

Then spoke to Champion Cycle around an hour later.
They didnt push me to use any specific product like a Power Commander and such.
Even gave me the option of purchasing a woolich license from them for $300 + a flate rate for the dyno at $500 for the day.


After reading comments on this thread I'm leaning towards an ECU reflash anyways...may as well get a quick shifter installed/programmed as well if I decide to go this route.

Looking to see what you decide to go with bigpoppa - figure if you have an awesome experience with a particular shop then it would be good to know.
Both Pro 6 Cycle and Champion Cycle had the same rating on Google.
Think I'll stay away from Riders Choice for something like this...
Part of the difference likely comes down to tech/shop familiarity with a particular solution. They know what they are doing and can quickly deal with one platform but may be fumbling around in another platform. You don't want to force someone that really likes Power commander to use a Bazzaz as it will drive up your bill and have suboptimal results.
 
Part of the difference likely comes down to tech/shop familiarity with a particular solution. They know what they are doing and can quickly deal with one platform but may be fumbling around in another platform. You don't want to force someone that really likes Power commander to use a Bazzaz as it will drive up your bill and have suboptimal results.
Unless you have driveability issues, why bother? I’ve drank the Koolaid, not worth it if you are just riding on the street. Spend your money on broads and booze, better ROI.
 
Unless you have driveability issues, why bother? I’ve drank the Koolaid, not worth it if you are just riding on the street. Spend your money on broads and booze, better ROI.
I'm on a motorcycle forum. I'm not going to judge others for how they want to spend their money. I probably wouldn't do it, but I haven't ridden his bike to know how annoying I find its particular fueling quirks.
 
After reading comments on this thread I'm leaning towards an ECU reflash anyways...may as well get a quick shifter installed/programmed as well if I decide to go this route.
Out of curiosity, what bike are you looking at modding? Have you still got the stock exhaust?

I only ask because you're looking at putting a lot down for things like dyno time that have almost zero residual value, and often that can get minimal results at the wheel without digging into major engine mods. Part of the reason I've not bothered with the motor on my Tuono is basic exhaust and reflash work only nets a few hp on a bike with more than enough for me as is. If I get a slip-on (purely vanity, not for performance), I'll be going the reflash route to keep things from getting too lean with the cat gone, not to chase a few more horsepower that I'll almost never use.

With that boringness out of the way, I suspect the reason Pro6 is recommending a PCV is because it's easier for them to make changes focusing on full throttle a/f ratios. Digging into ECU data can be bike-specific, and if they don't know the bike well, may be cautious about monkeying around in base engine settings. The PCV is a safer place to make changes. Also, depending on the complexity of your bike and ECU, the PCV may be able to change everything that needs done anyway. My RC51 is best modded with a PCV, but the Tuono does not benefit from one...
Looking to see what you decide to go with bigpoppa - figure if you have an awesome experience with a particular shop then it would be good to know.
Both Pro 6 Cycle and Champion Cycle had the same rating on Google.
Think I'll stay away from Riders Choice for something like this...
Pro6 has a good reputation, particularly with sportbikes. I had some dealings with them late last year getting parts, and while their prices were quite high, the customer service was decent. I have zero knowledge about Champion...
 
Out of curiosity, what bike are you looking at modding? Have you still got the stock exhaust?

I only ask because you're looking at putting a lot down for things like dyno time that have almost zero residual value, and often that can get minimal results at the wheel without digging into major engine mods. Part of the reason I've not bothered with the motor on my Tuono is basic exhaust and reflash work only nets a few hp on a bike with more than enough for me as is. If I get a slip-on (purely vanity, not for performance), I'll be going the reflash route to keep things from getting too lean with the cat gone, not to chase a few more horsepower that I'll almost never use.

With that boringness out of the way, I suspect the reason Pro6 is recommending a PCV is because it's easier for them to make changes focusing on full throttle a/f ratios. Digging into ECU data can be bike-specific, and if they don't know the bike well, may be cautious about monkeying around in base engine settings. The PCV is a safer place to make changes. Also, depending on the complexity of your bike and ECU, the PCV may be able to change everything that needs done anyway. My RC51 is best modded with a PCV, but the Tuono does not benefit from one...

Pro6 has a good reputation, particularly with sportbikes. I had some dealings with them late last year getting parts, and while their prices were quite high, the customer service was decent. I have zero knowledge about Champion...

Yup!
I have the stock exhaust in my possession as well.

Its a Kawasaki Z 650 with a Yoshimura Exhaust.
Based on what I see, the AFR could be running a little lean - based on what I see from Tremonte's build:


cache_16639725.jpg


I dont plan on doing anything else - which is why I've been eyeing a static tune.
To be completely honest, I could live with it as is..but there's always that 'what if' at the back of my mind lol.

Nice to hear good things about Pro 6..I cant remember whether his name was Rob or Bob...big guy but super patient and came across as very knowledgeable..
 
Got my kit, pulled the ECU data and sent my info off to tuner. Should get the maps in a few days.

I have to say i was grinning when i saw the screen light up and got that BMW XR intro. I am looking forward to riding again.

Technically the map will account for some mods i haven't installed yet, so flash may wait a bit.


flash11.jpg

They even threw in some Jelly Belly! Props to Brentuning.

rsz_flash_2.jpg
 
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Looking to see what you decide to go with bigpoppa - figure if you have an awesome experience with a particular shop then it would be good to know.
Both Pro 6 Cycle

TBH I think i'll just leave it stock, 5k buys a lot of tires and oil changes, if anything I might put on a slipon, they dont require any fiddling with fueling/maps, I was not looking for any performance gains, just a bit better sound, which is much cheaper
 
Its a Kawasaki Z 650 with a Yoshimura Exhaust.
Based on what I see, the AFR could be running a little lean - based on what I see from Tremonte's build:
Is it worth paying for a dyno run up front to check the a/f first?

That link also mentions the Rapid Bike Evo as a piggyback unit that taps into the a/f sensor, not sure how effective it is vs a Power Commander. Might save you the dyno cost if it works as advertised?

They even threw in some Jelly Belly! Props to Brentuning.
I got some gummy bears with an order from RaceTorx, must be a UK thing. Nicer than yet more stickers for the toolbox...
 
Is it worth paying for a dyno run up front to check the a/f first?

That link also mentions the Rapid Bike Evo as a piggyback unit that taps into the a/f sensor, not sure how effective it is vs a Power Commander. Might save you the dyno cost if it works as advertised?


I got some gummy bears with an order from RaceTorx, must be a UK thing. Nicer than yet more stickers for the toolbox...
I wouldn't be paying for a dyno run to check A/F ratio. Wideband 02 prices have come down drastically. Install one of those if you are a fiddler.
 
I got some gummy bears with an order from RaceTorx, must be a UK thing. Nicer than yet more stickers for the toolbox...
Oh there were stickers too! They aren’t really my thing so a friend had dibs on all the ones I get.
 
I wouldn't be paying for a dyno run to check A/F ratio. Wideband 02 prices have come down drastically. Install one of those if you are a fiddler.
Is it worth paying for a dyno run up front to check the a/f first?

That link also mentions the Rapid Bike Evo as a piggyback unit that taps into the a/f sensor, not sure how effective it is vs a Power Commander. Might save you the dyno cost if it works as advertised?

Decisions, decisions..
I'll probably sit on this for a few more days before making a move.

Gotta finish taxes first before driving myself nuts lol.
 

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