Let the City know what you want to do about e-bikes - official survey

[Kri$han]

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Come on toronto is just retarded anyways. Most people can't even follow walking rules . What's next walking insurance? Let them be. If we're getting screwed with insurance why do we have to drag everyone with us. People on e-bikes really aren't that bad. A lot of people use them to get around. You guys act like the ********** that open doors when we lane split. Unbelievable how bitchy everyone is.

+1 Soooo much hate for these things.

Come on, guys: People aren't riding these things on OUR roads because they want to: people ride them because they have to. License suspensions or they can't afford a car/gas/insurance... and these days, I can totally understand how that can happen.

That being said, I WOULD like to see these people obtain licenses and have some sort of regulatory testing, and license plates/stickers would be good (so that they have to maintain some sort of road-safety condition) but insurance is unnecessary, IMO. Helmets should be mandatory, and riding on sidewalks should be illegal.

In the 'burbs they hold up traffic as a result of POOR DRIVERS: people can't pass them because they're scared that the lane isn't wide enough for a car and an e-bike/bicycle: I see it all the time when i ride my bicycle... in the city, its a little different, but traffic moves pretty slow downtown, anyway.

 

[BusaBob]

They are *exactly* the same! It's literally just some plastic over what would be a bicycle-type frame.

hardly. they are wider than a regular bicycle. significantly heavier too.

 

[BusaBob]

My opinion depends on what you're classifying as an "e-bike". I think the ones that actually look like bicycles and are basically just bicycles with power assist should be treated as bicycles. But those big stupid scooter things should be off the road (ideally) unless they can match traffic speed and require license and insurance.

bang on.

the scooter-type ebikes are not bicycles at all. they're underpowered 200-300 lbs scooters.
let's call a spade a spade.

take the speed governors off the scooter-type e-"bikes" and allow them to be used by licensed and insured people on the roads, properly.

 

[drumstyx]

hardly. they are wider than a regular bicycle. significantly heavier too.

They're just as heavy as a bicycle style ebike. Wider? Come on, this has been addressed, I'm wider than my scooter style ebike, and you don't have a problem with me riding a bicycle, do you?

 

[drumstyx]

bang on.

the scooter-type ebikes are not bicycles at all. they're underpowered 200-300 lbs scooters.
let's call a spade a spade.

take the speed governors off the scooter-type e-"bikes" and allow them to be used by licensed and insured people on the roads, properly.

My ebike is 187 pounds, and a bicycle style ebike has the same potential for weight. The amount of damage that could be caused by a 500 watt motor with that weight, is comparable to riding a bicycle, which is exactly why they're classed as such. Insurance is not necessary in the slightest, unless you'd like bicyclists to carry insurance.

Someone mentioned registration also...seriously? Registration is just a tax on driving, period, there's no other reason for it. Once again, unless you plan on taxing bicyclists, there's no reason to tax ebikes.

 

[eljay]

They're just as heavy as a bicycle style ebike. Wider? Come on, this has been addressed, I'm wider than my scooter style ebike, and you don't have a problem with me riding a bicycle, do you?

Can you at least concede that ebike riders should follow the rules of the road? Bicycles should (rules do exist for them, even if they aren't aware of them). Just saying you know what you are doing isn't sufficient evidence to claim that all ebike riders know what they are doing. Seeing an ebike ahead of me brings me nearly as much fear as a BMW logo in my rearview in Markham, and that fear was not caused by preconceived notions about the vehicle but through experience.

 

[karentsang]

Someone mentioned registration also...seriously? Registration is just a tax on driving, period, there's no other reason for it. Once again, unless you plan on taxing bicyclists, there's no reason to tax ebikes.

Agreed. We need to make it easier for people to be on 2 wheels.

And it's nice to see Toronto use google technology to run the survey.

 

[TwistedKestrel]

"Historically, there has been little risk as electric wheelchairs available for purchase have only traveled at speeds which are close to walking speed."

Are you kidding me? Some of those things can MOVE

 

[BusaBob]

at 187 lbs (not including the rider) travelling at 30kmph, you are significantly less maneuverable than a cyclist on a 25-30 lbs bicycle, and carry that much more kinetic energy should you hit someone.

i don't know how wide you are, or what you're riding, but from what I've observed, every single scooter style e-bike i've seen is significantly wider than a bicycle, regardless of the size of the rider in question.

As well, I don't know if it has to do with skill or not, but every cyclist i've seen on the road can keep their bicycle travelling in a straight line, near the curb. In contrast, the scooter style ebikes tend to drift from side to side, either because of their weight, or poor suspension, rider skill, or a combination of all three etc.

my biggest beef with e-scooters is that their operators do NOT seem to understand the rules of the road, or appreciate the larger size of the ebike, causing a danger to themselves and others

 

[motorsiklet]

where i live i see this ebikers every morning riding on the middle lane on dundas street in mississauga where speed limit is 60km. most ppl do 70km btw . they are dangerous I have witnessed many times where they were getting crushed by cars. some of them do ride on the side of the road , but some ride like there is nothing wrong with doing 20km on the middle lane . i have seen cops driving by them and did nothing . i dont have any issue with ebikers if they ride on the roads where speed limit is 30km or 40km.

please stop comparing ebikes and bicyles , i never seen a cyclist riding in the middle lane , they are usually more cautious where they are riding ...

btw once i have seen 6 of them in downtown toronto around the UFT riding together like a group ride , it was so funny i regret not taking a picture video ... lol

 

[conundrum]

My opinion depends on what you're classifying as an "e-bike". I think the ones that actually look like bicycles and are basically just bicycles with power assist should be treated as bicycles. But those big stupid scooter things should be off the road (ideally) unless they can match traffic speed and require license and insurance.

Same -- As much as I'd like cyclists and moped riders to need a license and insurance that will never happen...but what dumbfounds me is if you buy a scooter-style e-bike you don't need a license nor insurance, but if you buy a gas-powered one that does the same speeds then suddenly you have a 'LSV' and need both. Like other have said, if it is not primarily powered (or solely powered) by a human, then it should need both a license and insurance.

 

[BusaBob]

They're just as heavy as a bicycle style ebike. Wider? Come on, this has been addressed, I'm wider than my scooter style ebike, and you don't have a problem with me riding a bicycle, do you?

You know what really does it? Those stupid pedals that jut out of the side of an already wide e-bike (electric scooter). The only purpose those pedals serve is to allow these scooters to fit the legal definition of "bicycle"...but I consider it a legal run-around. They are scooters for all intents and purposes.

I have no problem with a bicycle what has an electric motor and a battery, operated by someone who knows how to obey the rules of the road.

But these electric scooters have to go, or have their operators licensed and carry insurance.

 

[drumstyx]

Can you at least concede that ebike riders should follow the rules of the road? Bicycles should (rules do exist for them, even if they aren't aware of them). Just saying you know what you are doing isn't sufficient evidence to claim that all ebike riders know what they are doing. Seeing an ebike ahead of me brings me nearly as much fear as a BMW logo in my rearview in Markham, and that fear was not caused by preconceived notions about the vehicle but through experience.

Yep, I'm huge proponent of cyclists following the rules. I would flag down a cop for a cyclist breaking the law without a second thought.

at 187 lbs (not including the rider) travelling at 30kmph, you are significantly less maneuverable than a cyclist on a 25-30 lbs bicycle, and carry that much more kinetic energy should you hit someone.

i don't know how wide you are, or what you're riding, but from what I've observed, every single scooter style e-bike i've seen is significantly wider than a bicycle, regardless of the size of the rider in question.

As well, I don't know if it has to do with skill or not, but every cyclist i've seen on the road can keep their bicycle travelling in a straight line, near the curb. In contrast, the scooter style ebikes tend to drift from side to side, either because of their weight, or poor suspension, rider skill, or a combination of all three etc.

my biggest beef with e-scooters is that their operators do NOT seem to understand the rules of the road, or appreciate the larger size of the ebike, causing a danger to themselves and others

This has to do with the rider. Cyclists could well do this too, but unsteady cyclists tend to stay on the sidewalk (also illegal!) where ebikes tend to know they belong on the road by law, but may not be as capable as a road cyclist. You're right in saying that they should be as capable, and should be punished for dangerous driving.

where i live i see this ebikers every morning riding on the middle lane on dundas street in mississauga where speed limit is 60km. most ppl do 70km btw . they are dangerous I have witnessed many times where they were getting crushed by cars. some of them do ride on the side of the road , but some ride like there is nothing wrong with doing 20km on the middle lane . i have seen cops driving by them and did nothing . i dont have any issue with ebikers if they ride on the roads where speed limit is 30km or 40km.

please stop comparing ebikes and bicyles , i never seen a cyclist riding in the middle lane , they are usually more cautious where they are riding ...

Ebikes and cyclists are entitled to one lane, and in a normal situation, that should be the right lane. You're right in that these middle-lane ebicyclists need to be fined, as they are blocking traffic.

Same -- As much as I'd like cyclists and moped riders to need a license and insurance that will never happen...but what dumbfounds me is if you buy a scooter-style e-bike you don't need a license nor insurance, but if you buy a gas-powered one that does the same speeds then suddenly you have a 'LSV' and need both. Like other have said, if it is not primarily powered (or solely powered) by a human, then it should need both a license and insurance.

Ebikes do nowhere near the same speed as an LSM. LSMs have a maximum speed of 70, and at least 32 (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/#limited). There's no reason to require such insane insurance as with other vehicles on these dinky things.

 

[油井緋色]

I've had an e bike come at me against traffic.

Enough said. -__-

 

[FiReSTaRT]

I've had an e bike come at me against traffic.

Enough said. -__-

I've had an e-biker give me the finger because I stopped 2' short of him when he blew a stop. He could barely hold onto his 24.

 

[ViperZ]

They are *exactly* the same! It's literally just some plastic over what would be a bicycle-type frame.

Let me think really hard... Real bicycle has what, 18-21" wheels? That contraption has ugh 8"?

 

[ViperZ]

Ebikes and cyclists are entitled to one lane, and in a normal situation, that should be the right lane. You're right in that these middle-lane ebicyclists need to be fined, as they are blocking traffic.

Screw that. I have SO MANY TIMES an "e-biker" (wow, what a word) blocking the only available lane on Bathurst in traffic, and there was no way to pass that thing - slow, bulky and wide.

 

[BusaBob]

This has to do with the rider. Cyclists could well do this too, but unsteady cyclists tend to stay on the sidewalk (also illegal!) where ebikes tend to know they belong on the road by law, but may not be as capable as a road cyclist. You're right in saying that they should be as capable, and should be punished for dangerous driving.


Ebikes and cyclists are entitled to one lane, and in a normal situation, that should be the right lane. You're right in that these middle-lane ebicyclists need to be fined, as they are blocking traffic.


Ebikes do nowhere near the same speed as an LSM. LSMs have a maximum speed of 70, and at least 32 (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/#limited). There's no reason to require such insane insurance as with other vehicles on these dinky things.

to address each of your multiple points:
1) that is precisely the problem. the combination of such people, riding these things creates a menace on the roads

2) bicycles are NOT entitled to a full lane. this is a common misconception. they are REQUIRED by law to move over to the right and allow faster moving traffic to pass. this is possible because bicycles are narrow and a car can safely pass them. however, this becomes problematic for scooter ebikes because they are so wide, preventing the safe passing by motor vehicles to their left. since scooter ebikes are so wide, they inevitably take up too much lane to allow a safe pass, and since they are so slow, block traffic behind them

3) an ebike's top speed is electronically governed. they can be made to go faster. but regardless, a 300-400 lbs ebike scooter and rider package barreling down the sidewalk or roadway at 32kmph will cause enough damage/injury to warrant insurance coverage.

I stand by my point of view that they should be banned from the roadways. they are a menace to pedestrians and other motorists.

If you're intent on an electric bike, then get an electric bike, not an underpowered electric scooter (which is not a bike and should not be considered as a bike)

 

[drumstyx]

to address each of your multiple points:
1) that is precisely the problem. the combination of such people, riding these things creates a menace on the roads

2) bicycles are NOT entitled to a full lane. this is a common misconception. they are REQUIRED by law to move over to the right and allow faster moving traffic to pass. this is possible because bicycles are narrow and a car can safely pass them. however, this becomes problematic for scooter ebikes because they are so wide, preventing the safe passing by motor vehicles to their left. since scooter ebikes are so wide, they inevitably take up too much lane to allow a safe pass, and since they are so slow, block traffic behind them

3) an ebike's top speed is electronically governed. they can be made to go faster. but regardless, a 300-400 lbs ebike scooter and rider package barreling down the sidewalk or roadway at 32kmph will cause enough damage/injury to warrant insurance coverage.

I stand by my point of view that they should be banned from the roadways. they are a menace to pedestrians and other motorists.

If you're intent on an electric bike, then get an electric bike, not an underpowered electric scooter (which is not a bike and should not be considered as a bike)

1: you're right, I'm fully in support of a stricter hammer on cyclists.

2: Bicycles are entitled to as much space as needed, up to and including a full lane. If the right side of the lane is unsafe, they can ride further out. They really aren't any wider than a large rider on a bicycle.

3: They can be made to go faster only with modification which is already illegal. a 300-400 pound package at 32km/h has about the same or less potential energy as a 200 pound package going 50km/h on a road bike. There are people that do this, do they need insurance? But what I really wonder is what insurance you propose. 200k liability plus the insane accident benefits would be so completely inappropriate for such a situation. Damage goes up exponentially with speed. a 50 km/h accident could likely cause many thousands of damage, where 30km/h would likely cause less than half that.

 

[BusaBob]

1: you're right, I'm fully in support of a stricter hammer on cyclists.

2: Bicycles are entitled to as much space as needed, up to and including a full lane. If the right side of the lane is unsafe, they can ride further out. They really aren't any wider than a large rider on a bicycle.

3: They can be made to go faster only with modification which is already illegal. a 300-400 pound package at 32km/h has about the same or less potential energy as a 200 pound package going 50km/h on a road bike. There are people that do this, do they need insurance? But what I really wonder is what insurance you propose. 200k liability plus the insane accident benefits would be so completely inappropriate for such a situation. Damage goes up exponentially with speed. a 50 km/h accident could likely cause many thousands of damage, where 30km/h would likely cause less than half that.

my point being, these wide e-scooters have no business being on the road.
you haven't stated anything that makes me even remotely deviate from that sentiment.

they don't look anything like bicycles, are dimensionally very different from bicycles and do not handle like a bicycle.

hence they should not be treated like bicycles.

how many plus size riders do you know who can sustain 50kmph on a busy city street???
if they're out there, they are rare. I've not seen one.

with these e-scooters, any drunk idiot can climb aboard and careen all over the road and sidewalk with little or no consequence. I seen DOZENS of wide e-scooters taking up full lanes, travel down sidewalks, almost hit pedestrians on corners or intersections, etc.

you're arguments about bicycles being illegal on the sidewalks is a moot point.
but it's bad enough when you have a bicycle on the sidewalk, it's even worse when an e-scooter is barreling along on the sidewalk because it takes up the whole sidewalk.

your argument that it's illegal to make them go faster than 32km/hr is also a moot point. my point was that if they are to be allowed on the road, they should be made to be able to go as fast as necessary to keep up with street traffic.

and again, a bicycle is required by law to move over to the right and allow a faster vehicle to overtake it. this is possible because it is narrow. the e-scooters cannot do so because they are significantly wider, especially when dealing with those vestigial pedals they're required to have.

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