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Etiquette

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Homme007

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May be I will get flamed for this but I want to ask anyway.

Was riding around North York just now and just at the intersection of Bishop and Willowdale, a rider went down. He was on Willowdale, south side of Bishop, while I was going eastbound on Bishop.

I only saw rider down because I was doing my intersection checks and I saw rider (down) and another rider stopped trying to call someone and obviously the car that’s involved.

My question is… immediately I wanted to do a U-turn to see if they need any help. But thinking there is someone already at his side, I just carried on my commute….

It’s kinda weighing on me for not stopping…. Am I wrong? Should I have returned and see if I can help?

(I hope the guy is ok. Bike was everywhere.).

Ride safe everyone.
 
Having too many people at the scene of an accident can create more problems than benefits. There was already someone there on the phone (likely to 911) so what could you hope to do if you went to the scene, other than lend comfort to the rider. You didn't see the accident happen so the cops wouldn't want to speak with you & once emergency vehicles arrived they'd likely tell you to get lost anyway. I don't think you did anything wrong.
 
Unless you’re able to perform (and you better be damn sure) first aid what else can you do to assist?

Rider down, people were already on the phone with 9-1-1 (most likely), and the sequence to aid has begun.

Me personally, I’d keep riding because I know that I wouldn’t be able to aid assistance outside of comfort. Obviously if it’s someone you know you stop, but stopping for the sake of stopping…you just become another gawker.
 
For me it would be:

1. Is there someone already calling emergency services
2. Is there also someone competently looking after the injured party
3. Is there a need for anyone to deal with traffic?

If all those are filled I’d just be a spectator and surplus to requirements

2 is hard to assess for competency though so there’s that.
 
Homme007 said:
@Green Meenie @mimico_polak Thanks for the affirmations... Those were definitely the 2nd thoughts in my mind.. I am prolly less help by being there... just felt bad for the guy...
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jc100 said:
For me it would be:

1. Is there someone already calling emergency services
2. Is there also someone competently looking after the injured party
3. Is there a need for anyone to deal with traffic?

If all those are filled I’d just be a spectator and surplus to requirements

2 is hard to assess for competency though so there’s that.
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I’d do the same for any accident.

I’d stop to see if anyone had taken charge of helping anyone injured. Ask if my help would be of any value - if yes I stay and help, if no I’d move along.

If I saw the crash or anything relevant, I’d stay to volunteer as a witness.
 
To set your mind at ease, I'd only stop if I thought I could render assistance above and beyond who/what is already there.

If someone else is assisting, I'm not going to clog up the roadway by also stopping.

That said, if I am out on my enduro or adventure bike, I normally carry a full complement of tools and spare parts as well as a very comprehensive first aid kit, so I will turn around and ask if they need anything I can provide. I've plugged tires for strangers, lent out so many inner tubes as well as offered zip-ties/bolts to riders on the trails who have decided to perform "unintended gravity checks".

If I'm on my streetbike, I only carry a smartphone - and everyone's got one, so I'd provide very little value-add if someone else is already assisting.
 
I would only stop only if I knew I can offer some sort of assistance. Any sort of help that is already not being offered.

I am not trained in first aid so I wouldn't even attempt any professional help. I do know to keep the injured as steady as possible.

My wife on the other hand has stopped many times at the scene of many motorcycle or car accidents. She is fully trained in first aid and in fact is obligated to stop and offer life saving assistance if the need is there. Recently she stopped at the scene of a car accident and waited 20 min for first responders to arrive.

I do however normally stop if I see another rider at the side if the road, especially hiways. I'm ready to help in anyway I can, even if it's to offer my CAA account for a tow.
 
oioioi said:
I would only stop only if I knew I can offer some sort of assistance. Any sort of help that is already not being offered.

I am not trained in first aid so I wouldn't even attempt any professional help. I do know to keep the injured as steady as possible.

My wife on the other hand has stopped many times at the scene of many motorcycle or car accidents. She is fully trained in first aid and in fact is obligated to stop and offer life saving assistance if the need is there. Recently she stopped at the scene of a car accident and waited 20 min for first responders to arrive.

I do however normally stop if I see another rider at the side if the road, especially hiways. I'm ready to help in anyway I can, even if it's to offer my CAA account for a tow.
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Kudos to your wife. I've had first responders say they'd do the opposite due to their professional status holding them to a higher accountability if anything went wrong.

As far as attending the scene, In one case I was front row seat to a crash and there were over a dozen people standing around for several minutes before someone asked if 911 had been called. I double checked and it hadn't. Fortunately no injuries, just two cars that would be written off.

Another time I came across a collision but didn't see the impact. When police arrived they said I would just be in the way. I did take the passengers to their homes.
 
nobbie48 said:
Kudos to your wife. I've had first responders say they'd do the opposite due to their professional status holding them to a higher accountability if anything went wrong.

As far as attending the scene, In one case I was front row seat to a crash and there were over a dozen people standing around for several minutes before someone asked if 911 had been called. I double checked and it hadn't. Fortunately no injuries, just two cars that would be written off.

Another time I came across a collision but didn't see the impact. When police arrived they said I would just be in the way. I did take the passengers to their homes.
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That's and interesting one.

I thought it would be their duty to assist even when off-duty. (unless other circumstances do not allow them i.e. under the influence of alcohol)

I should ask her to look into this more. Out of curiosity and not out of getting out of the obligation.

I will also try to ask my friends whos daughter is a paramedic herself and husband is a firefighter.
 
nobbie48 said:
Kudos to your wife. I've had first responders say they'd do the opposite due to their professional status holding them to a higher accountability if anything went wrong.

As far as attending the scene, In one case I was front row seat to a crash and there were over a dozen people standing around for several minutes before someone asked if 911 had been called. I double checked and it hadn't. Fortunately no injuries, just two cars that would be written off.

Another time I came across a collision but didn't see the impact. When police arrived they said I would just be in the way. I did take the passengers to their homes.
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I'll stop if I think I can help (first-aid, fire, blocking vehicle, traffic, 911, etc). I have a decent (but not yet complete) first-aid kit and fire extinguisher in the car (my car, my wifes has nothing). Ambulance response times are normally pretty good but if you can stop a major bleed a few minutes earlier, that's a big deal. Thankfully, most crashes I see stopping wasn't helpful. There are already too many people on scene for most. I've seen a horrible truck crash in a cellphone dead area so I kept going to get signal and get the cavalry coming as anyone near the crash likely couldn't call for help.

Friends of my parents are paramedics and trouble seems to find them. Almost every month, they are first on scene to a crash or medical incident while they are off-duty and see something isn't right. Thankfully, they are awesome (qualified as ACP and ER/ICU Nurse) so those they find are lucky to get excellent care from the start.
 
oioioi said:
That's and interesting one.

I thought it would be their duty to assist even when off-duty. (unless other circumstances do not allow them i.e. under the influence of alcohol)

I should ask her to look into this more. Out of curiosity and not out of getting out of the obligation.

I will also try to ask my friends whos daughter is a paramedic herself and husband is a firefighter.
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We were on a ride and a rider went down in a low speed high side. Numerous bystanders helped including an off duty paramedic. Minor concussion so free ride to the hospital. A local housed the bike until the rider was up to snuff.

Some worry warts might be reading too many United States of Attorneys propaganda where after saving someones life they get sued because the injured party doesn't like the shape of the scar from their drunk driving crash.
 
nobbie48 said:
We were on a ride and a rider went down in a low speed high side. Numerous bystanders helped including an off duty paramedic. Minor concussion so free ride to the hospital. A local housed the bike until the rider was up to snuff.

Some worry warts might be reading too many United States of Attorneys propaganda where after saving someones life they get sued because the injured party doesn't like the shape of the scar from their drunk driving crash.
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Here's the applicable law. Both health-care professionals and normal individuals are protected by the law. There is an interesting twist that health-care professionals are protected outside of a health care facility and individuals are only protected at the "immediate scene of the accident or emergency". If a rider is in a crash and given a ride to safer location for medical intervention, that may be a path for a lawyer to grab on to.

Law Document English View

Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.
www.ontario.ca www.ontario.ca
 
GreyGhost said:
Here's the applicable law. Both health-care professionals and normal individuals are protected by the law. There is an interesting twist that health-care professionals are protected outside of a health care facility and individuals are only protected at the "immediate scene of the accident or emergency". If a rider is in a crash and given a ride to safer location for medical intervention, that may be a path for a lawyer to grab on to.

Law Document English View

Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.
www.ontario.ca www.ontario.ca
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2. (1) Despite the rules of common law, a person described in subsection (2) who voluntarily and without reasonable expectation of compensation or reward provides the services described in that subsection is not liable for damages that result from the person’s negligence in acting or failing to act while providing the services, unless it is established that the damages were caused by the gross negligence of the person.

Enter legal teams A and B. Sigh
 
Yeah... Americans have some weird laws.
In most states, if you get into a collision and say "sorry"... that "sorry" can be seen as an admission of guilt.
WTF?
We have a "good Samaritan" laws here.

Nobbie: The distinction is GROSS negligence. Negligent is when you make a mistake... OOPS. Gross negligence is an OOPS that a reasonable person would know is wrong... but you did it anyway.
 
nobbie48 said:
As far as attending the scene, In one case I was front row seat to a crash and there were over a dozen people standing around for several minutes before someone asked if 911 had been called. I double checked and it hadn't. Fortunately no injuries, just two cars that would be written off.
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If there were no injuries or fire, there would have been no need to call 911. Especially with single-vehicle accidents, you should ask those involved if they want first responders to arrive.
 
Relax said:
If there were no injuries or fire, there would have been no need to call 911. Especially with single-vehicle accidents, you should ask those involved if they want first responders to arrive.
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There were two vehicles and the impact serious enough to warrant a 911 call. The dispatcher clarified the need for ambulances (Shaken but not broken) but police and tow trucks were needed. Also there were fluids so fire was dispatched.

I'm not a medic so I don't make the call on injuries.
 
nobbie48 said:
There were two vehicles and the impact serious enough to warrant a 911 call. The dispatcher clarified the need for ambulances (Shaken but not broken) but police and tow trucks were needed. Also there were fluids so fire was dispatched.

I'm not a medic so I don't make the call on injuries.
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Half the battle is keeping people calm and still. F me do so many people panic and start screaming about the vehicle exploding. In most cases, there is a bit of airbag smoke and those in the crash are far better served by staying where they are until they can be properly assessed and stabilized. Even without the screaming, most people try to walk off the crash while the adrenaline is still raging and they haven't checked for injuries. That can turn a small problem into a big one very quickly.
 
GreyGhost said:
Here's the applicable law. Both health-care professionals and normal individuals are protected by the law. There is an interesting twist that health-care professionals are protected outside of a health care facility and individuals are only protected at the "immediate scene of the accident or emergency". If a rider is in a crash and given a ride to safer location for medical intervention, that may be a path for a lawyer to grab on to.

Law Document English View

Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.
www.ontario.ca www.ontario.ca
Click to expand...
In first aid training they hammer into you that you are not to transport a casuality that is not a direct family member for any reason. Once you transport you lose good Samaritan protection.
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