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Dangers of ebikes(fortnine)
- Thread starter bigpoppa
- Start date
Electric bicycles, well....depends on who's riding them, but I find them only slightly problematic. A lot of their owners are actually responsible.
The "electric moped" things, well, depends on how drunk the rider is at that moment in time.
The "electric lookalike 1000rr" sportbike aberrations we're seeing more and more, don't even get me started.
Did I cover all the stereotypes there?
The "electric moped" things, well, depends on how drunk the rider is at that moment in time.
The "electric lookalike 1000rr" sportbike aberrations we're seeing more and more, don't even get me started.
Did I cover all the stereotypes there?
I spoke to a bicycle cop on the subject and his problem was the number of loopholes in the system / definitions.
We are mostly against creating new systems but there are two systems that already exist in other fields that should translate to electric bicycles.
1) A driver's licence could be copied from the boaters card system. A written test showing you know the basic legal requirements so you can't plead ignorant. You carry the card when riding and, as with the boaters card, you carry I.D to prove you're the person named on the bike card. The written test clarifies you can't operate the bike if you have a DUI suspension. The test could be at the dealer, on line or at a MOT facility.
2) A vehicle license could be like a trailer license, good for life. At least if the rider does damage they can be identified. A lifetime trailer plate is $72.00 IIRC
We can tighten the screws if needed. Some form of mandatory insurance would be nice but we know what happens there. Maybe another time.
It's not just enforcement. Wynnebag (or was it mcguinty) made a ridiculous set of rules. Many of the problems could be eliminated if the ebike rules were made reasonable. Cops can only work with what they are given.
The ebike is no more dangerous than the motorcycle. Or the electric scooter. Or the car.
The only component making it dangerous is the operator.
I motorcyle, ebicycle, bicycle and escooter. I ride responsibly on all of them. I use the same mindset when riding them, in that I consider myself invisible to others on the road.
There are laws concerning ebikes, max 32 kmh, no riding on bike paths with a non pedelec bike, and no riding on sidewalks at all. The speed limit on bike paths is 20kmh. Bicycles also require front and rear lights, and reflectors.
Its up to the operator whether they choose to follow them.
The only component making it dangerous is the operator.
I motorcyle, ebicycle, bicycle and escooter. I ride responsibly on all of them. I use the same mindset when riding them, in that I consider myself invisible to others on the road.
There are laws concerning ebikes, max 32 kmh, no riding on bike paths with a non pedelec bike, and no riding on sidewalks at all. The speed limit on bike paths is 20kmh. Bicycles also require front and rear lights, and reflectors.
Its up to the operator whether they choose to follow them.
An ebike is more dangerous than a bicycle. It by definition is allowed to be up to 120 Kg. That is an order of magnitude more kinetic energy than most pedal bikes. They dont have better brakes to account for the difference. Most bicycle riders are also power limited and unable to maintain 32 km/h which is simple on an ebike. That means they are carrying more speed and therefore way more energy than a typical bicycle.
As for comparison with cars and motorcycles, those have insurance so when you smoke people with your heavy vehicle there is a mechanism to cover the damage you cause. Ebike has the damage without the protection.
When my wife was at Hamilton general hospital in the neurological damage unit, there was a few patients there with brain injuries from e-bikes. The story is always the same. Useless helmet (usually not fastened) with an improper turn either from the rider or the driver. Many of the patients have multiple trips to emerg. One lady blamed all her injuries on bad drivers and one way streets. She had never been licensed.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
I’m talking about the stop sign & red light running, travelling in oncoming lanes, riding sidewalks, helmets, running 75kmh on an ebike.
Those are easy kills, no grey areas there. Think about this: get on your ebike without a helmet and head out for a 30km ride thru downtown Barrie without your helmet. Repeat on your MC, do you think the result will be the same?
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Not exactly true. To drive a car or motorcycle you need at minimum to prove you have a basic understanding of operation and driving rules.
You also follow enforced rules under the HTA. You probably have some driver training as it’s financially advantageous. Your driving world is mostly compliant drivers. There are enormous financial penalties for non compliance.
in contrast, bike/ebike riders require no training, operate with a peer group where a large number flagrantly disregard driving laws and safe driving practices.
by this logic a container ship should be the most dangerous vehicle. on road i guess it would be transport truck?
insurance or training do not make a vehicle more dangerous
my point is you can drive an ebike safely. follow the laws governing speed and the rules of the road. whether or not they are enforced is a policing issue.
many car drivers view ALL motorcyclists as being dangerous as we well know. same as ebikes, its the bad apples that give that reputation
If you drove a container ship in locations designed for bikes where people were expecting bikes, yes, it would be the most destructive thing. Thankfully, our fearless leaders are at least smart enough that container ships are not allowed in those locations. The point is, ebikes are carrying a lot of energy with no required training, knowledge or insurance.
Mad Mike
Well-known member
People can be trained to drive anything safely. I'm not trained in nuclear war but I'm sure I could handle the nuclear football as safely as Donald Trump.
My point is legislation, enforcement, and the cycling community have created a situation that does not facilitate safety in ebike drivers -- and the results pretty well prove that out.
Since you e-travel I can understand you not wanting to see new rules that would effect your status and freedom to escape consequence should it become necessary at some time. Unfortunately there are too many in our population that abuse the rules because they are not enforced or enforceable.
If everyone used the golden rule we wouldn't need any laws. Instead we have self centred twits running amok.
Max weight 120 Kg, bike alone, going at 32 Kph. Add the lightest rider, say 50Kg, and it gives a hit package greater than an NFL tackle. The average weight of a NFL tackle is 312 pounds / 142 Kg and they can't run at the e-bike speed. Read the link.
Football Physics: The Anatomy of a Hit
The average football sack can produce a bone-shattering 1600 lbs of force. Armed with new tools, researchers are now studying the science of a gridiron fundamental: The tackle.
www.popularmechanics.com
Note that the player getting tackled has protective gear and lands on something softer than concrete. The pedestrian gets hit with plastic fairings and metal protrusions and is only protected by fashion fabric. Are pedestrians suppose to be ATGATT? Pardon me while I change into my helmet and leathers. I'm walking to the deli for a sandwich.
There was the 150 Kg cow on an e-bike riding the sidewalk on Yonge Street summer of 2019 at lunch time with the sidewalk crowded.
The biggest part of my M/C insurance is medical benefits to pay for rehab should I crash. Mr. / Ms. E-bike has no such coverage. Where does that come from? Eventually from our taxes in the form of subsidized jello brain housing with a personal care worker.
The list goes on.
I have had my motorcycle license for 39 years. I have owned in that time more than 50 motorcycles. I am as/more passionate about motorcycle than anyone else here. My "workday" starts with reading motorcycle news sites from several different countries.
That being said, I have now had an ebike for two years. It weighs 27kg, and when it hits 32kmh by pedalling, the engine cuts off. It has a 500w motor. This is a legal ebike in Ontario. I have a 14km commute to work. If the temps are comfortable I take my regular bicycle. If it's very hot, I take the ebike so I don't arrive at work drenched in sweat. One day a week (sometimes more) I take the motorcycle. If its pouring rain or the ground is covered with snow I take the car. I do this year round.
Anyway thats beside the point, the initial video which started this thread was of a motorcyclist who shows all the safety gear and features that he chooses to use and compared that to a electric bicycle that he rides with no thought for safety gear. This then becomes a discussion about the weight of an ebike and the damage it causes.
So lets make a fair comparison with accurate numbers. A pedestrian crosses the road illegally and is struck by a vehicle doing the legal speed limit. Inquiring minds want to know how much Impact force is involved. I am using averages of weights for North Amercia- A person is 180lbs
bicycle + rider (95kg)@ 20kmh 2.94 kN (peak impact force)
ebicycle + rider (108kg)@ 32kmh 8.53 kN
ebike + rider (202kg) @ 32kmh 15.96kN (this is with maximum weight allowed ebike 120kg)
ebike + rider (speeding) @50kmh 38.96kN
motorcycle + rider (276kg) @ 50kmh 53.24kN ( I used an SV650 weight)
motorcycle + rider (speeding) @ 80kmh 136.29kN
car + driver (1896kg) @ 50kmh 365.74kN (using car weight 1800kg)
car + driver (speeding) @ 80kmh 936kN
tractor trailer + driver @v50kmh 8777kN (truck weight 45500kg)
You can draw your own conclusions as to which impacts are more damaging than others. And for every example of an ebike rider involved in a crash, you can find one of a motorcycle or car involved in a crash, almost always with more deadly results.
I would be all for some type of bicycle licensing and insurance. As to laws, Ontario does have them regarding ebikes, just because many break them is an enforcement issue.
I have no use for the DUI person riding his offshore escooter down the side of the road at 50kmh with no lights, pedals, helmet etc.
I also have no use for the motorcyclists at LnL Thursday nites who remount their plates illegally and have to wheelie down Lakeshore at double the speed limit when they leave.
If they are so dangerous why has the city of Toronto now provided bike shares with electric bikes?
That being said, I have now had an ebike for two years. It weighs 27kg, and when it hits 32kmh by pedalling, the engine cuts off. It has a 500w motor. This is a legal ebike in Ontario. I have a 14km commute to work. If the temps are comfortable I take my regular bicycle. If it's very hot, I take the ebike so I don't arrive at work drenched in sweat. One day a week (sometimes more) I take the motorcycle. If its pouring rain or the ground is covered with snow I take the car. I do this year round.
Anyway thats beside the point, the initial video which started this thread was of a motorcyclist who shows all the safety gear and features that he chooses to use and compared that to a electric bicycle that he rides with no thought for safety gear. This then becomes a discussion about the weight of an ebike and the damage it causes.
So lets make a fair comparison with accurate numbers. A pedestrian crosses the road illegally and is struck by a vehicle doing the legal speed limit. Inquiring minds want to know how much Impact force is involved. I am using averages of weights for North Amercia- A person is 180lbs
bicycle + rider (95kg)@ 20kmh 2.94 kN (peak impact force)
ebicycle + rider (108kg)@ 32kmh 8.53 kN
ebike + rider (202kg) @ 32kmh 15.96kN (this is with maximum weight allowed ebike 120kg)
ebike + rider (speeding) @50kmh 38.96kN
motorcycle + rider (276kg) @ 50kmh 53.24kN ( I used an SV650 weight)
motorcycle + rider (speeding) @ 80kmh 136.29kN
car + driver (1896kg) @ 50kmh 365.74kN (using car weight 1800kg)
car + driver (speeding) @ 80kmh 936kN
tractor trailer + driver @v50kmh 8777kN (truck weight 45500kg)
You can draw your own conclusions as to which impacts are more damaging than others. And for every example of an ebike rider involved in a crash, you can find one of a motorcycle or car involved in a crash, almost always with more deadly results.
I would be all for some type of bicycle licensing and insurance. As to laws, Ontario does have them regarding ebikes, just because many break them is an enforcement issue.
I have no use for the DUI person riding his offshore escooter down the side of the road at 50kmh with no lights, pedals, helmet etc.
I also have no use for the motorcyclists at LnL Thursday nites who remount their plates illegally and have to wheelie down Lakeshore at double the speed limit when they leave.
If they are so dangerous why has the city of Toronto now provided bike shares with electric bikes?
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What is the acceptable term for an ebike rider? News today reported a 50 year old cyclist was critically injured in a hit and run. He was on a DUI mobile (scooter-style ebike with 3" cranks way behind your knees). As it is not possible to pedal that bike, I take offence to them being called a cyclist. They are a hell of a lot closer to a motorcyclist but most motorcyclists also don't want to be associated with DUI mobiles. What should they be called? E-bike rider? I have no problem with pedelec riders being called cyclist as it is motor assisted, not motor driven.
E-Bikes and electric bicycles. Simple.
But what do you call the people that ride them?
Losers and cyclists.
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