Crash

If I can't see ahead of me, I always assume there is a car coming.







I hope this was explained well enough. The driver was charged in the incident and I was hauled to the hospital. Originally, the EMS feared a broken hip, but X-rays showed nothing but some pretty bad bruising. I'm limping but I'm alive and I'm thankful for it.

Any insight as to what can be done in the future to avoid this would be greatly appreciated.[/QUOTE]
 
[video=youtube;huGexZrovco]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huGexZrovco[/video]

Really, you're comparing braking on the track with street riding...

Is this how you motivate your students? By not answering their question when asked and then telling them to reconsider riding?

Sushi is not my student.

That's unfortunate

Lol...

Blaming the brake for locking the rear wheel is like blaming the oven for over cooking the pot roast.
 
Really, you're comparing braking on the track with street riding...

Why is it different?

In track you are trying to slow down as fast as possible, in street riding during EMERGENCY braking, you are also trying to slow down/stop as fast as possible. What is the difference here?

Different bikes but same goal.

On a side note: If braking is different from track and street riding, is turning also different?
 
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Target fixation for me. I saw an ice patch I wanted to miss and kept looking at it. Lost a turn signal and some pride. Look at the path around the object instead.
 
Why was racing brought into this discussion? The two are nothing alike. How often does anyone come to a complete stop while racing (I would hope never)? How often do riders try to sustain the maximum possible speed while traversing through a right or left hand turn on the street (I would hope never). I would stay far away from anyone who street rides like a racer. Street riding has it's own set of best practices - stick to them.

Might as well bring dirt riding into the discussion as well - try telling those guys they're wrong for using any amount of back brake...
 
Why is it different?

In track you are trying to slow down as fast as possible, in street riding during EMERGENCY braking, you are also trying to slow down/stop as fast as possible. What is the difference here?

Different bikes but same goal.

On a side note: If braking is different from track and street riding, is turning also different?

Yes Sushii, it's very different. Different techniques for different applications intended for different outcomes. You're grasping to find some way to justify what you're positing, which is improper street riding technique. You really need to take some sort of skills development course for your own sake.
 
Here's a scenario: How to brake?

Roads drenched from a Heavy Rain Fall, Puddles on Road. The stop is at the end of a declining road (relatively steep for a road). Slowing from a speed of 70 k. Front Brake only? Rear Brake only? Both? How would you handle this?
 
Here's a scenario: How to brake?

Roads drenched from a Heavy Rain Fall, Puddles on Road. The stop is at the end of a declining road (relatively steep for a road). Slowing from a speed of 70 k. Front Brake only? Rear Brake only? Both? How would you handle this?

Just jump off the bike and let the bike come to it's own stop. :)
 
Why was racing brought into this discussion? The two are nothing alike. How often does anyone come to a complete stop while racing (I would hope never)? How often do riders try to sustain the maximum possible speed while traversing through a right or left hand turn on the street (I would hope never). I would stay far away from anyone who street rides like a racer. Street riding has it's own set of best practices - stick to them.

Might as well bring dirt riding into the discussion as well - try telling those guys they're wrong for using any amount of back brake...

I used that just to show that if you are emergency breaking(in the video you can see the rears bouncing/lifting), the front end is going to be loaded and very little weight on the rear. So if your using the rear and it has little to no weight on it (really hammering the front) the backs just going to lock up which won't help you at all, better to have it rolling then locked.
 
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First:
First day I got the bike I picked it up in Orangeville. I still needed some riding pants so I rode on back roads all the way to GP Bikes in Ajax. Tried on some pants that I was interested in, they didn't fit so I headed out.

Went north on whatever road GP was on at the time (they have since moved). Got to the first huge intersection and had to make a left for whatever reason. This was a 4 lanes in each direction intersection. So the lights changed and I never got a chance to go. Then I thought I better get going quick before traffic starts moving. So I try to go quickly and all is going well but then I remember the break in and I'm not supposed to go over 4k RPM. So I try to upshift but since I was trying to rush I gave it too much throttle and the bike took off faster than I was expecting. I panicked, started thinking I was going to ram the curb, looked at the curb, and rammed it. I was tossed off the back of my bike and did a belly flop on the road, knocking the wind out of me. Kind of did a roll on the road too because I skinned my knee (since jeans will shred like nothing at pretty much any speed since I was only going about 40 kph) and when that pain hit I punched the road with one hand and flipped over onto my side. Watched my bike go about 10 ft down the sidewalk (apparently it made it over the 5" 90 degree curb fine even though the forks, bump stops, triples, and front wheel were bent) and fall over. Did $4000+ of damage to the $8300 bike according to the dealer's quote later.

I could have avoided that by not upshifting, taking my time a little better, or not looking at the curb, or some combo of all of the above.

Second:
Following a lunch truck too close in the rain. He stopped suddenly to make a left into a business. I grabbed the front, I guess too hard even though I was thinking I shouldn't grab too much front break, and 1/2 second later I'm sliding on my *** toward the truck's bumper while my bike slides down the road on it's side in the right lane. Stopped myself with my foot on his bumper so I wouldn't slide under the truck. I left a dent that I continue to see to this day in his shiny stainless bumper. Bike had a bent shifter but otherwise the damage was to the same parts that were already damaged. I somehow knocked off my big toenail on my shifter foot which made the ride home suck. I got the bike up, bent the shifter back on the spot, threw the busted mirror in my backback, rode to work, and pretended nothing happened because I was embarrassed. Rear frame sliders paid off (no damage to rear fairings) but I didn't have fronts yet.

Could have avoided that one but leaving more following distance, braking smoother, or swerving.

Third:
Third time was just a drop at a stop sign. I was going to roll through it (bad idea) and then noticed a car was a little closer and going a little faster than I first thought so I hit the brakes to stop. I did stop but somehow, since I wasn't planning to stop, I lost my balance and fell over. Super embarrassing. Next to no damage to the bike or myself except for my pride. Front frame sliders paid off.

Could have avoided that one by riding less aggressive and braking properly.

Yep. 3 drops in 3 years. Not a good record. Can't blame my gf for not getting on with me even though I've taken other passengers with no issues. My gf says I need to go a year drop-free before she'll get on.
 
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I used that just to show that if you are emergency breaking(in the video you can see the rears bouncing/lifting), the front end is going to be loaded and very little weight on the rear. So if your using the rear and it has little to no weight on it (really hammering the front) the backs just going to lock up which won't help you at all, better to have it rolling then locked.

And what does the video have to do with emergency braking in street riding? You seem to suggest that aggressive use of the front will invariably result in the rear locking up? Patently untrue... we demonstrate this all the time. Proper technique, proper application of the brakes, is what's required. And that takes practice, universally. Ditching the use of your rear to compensate for poor skills is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Why not simply develop the right technique instead of spewing off rhetoric and anecdotes?

http://www.stevemunden.com/braking.html

Fédération motocycliste du Québec study on emergency braking and yes, the importance of using of BOTH brakes:

http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf
 
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And what does the video have to do with emergency braking in street riding? You seem to suggest that aggressive use of the front will invariably result in the rear locking up? Patently untrue... we demonstrate this all the time. Proper technique, proper application of the brakes, is what's required. And that takes practice.

It just shows what happens to the rear when your hard on the brakes. Im not saying that just using the front hard is going to lock up the rear. Im saying if you do load up the front while braking hard, and the rear wheel comes off the ground or has little weight on it so once you hit the rear brake it won't take much force for it to lock up. Using the front brakes aggressively on a sport bike is going to shift a lot of weight forward.
 
It just shows what happens to the rear when your hard on the brakes. Im not saying that just using the front hard is going to lock up the rear. Im saying if you do load up the front while braking hard, and the rear wheel comes off the ground or has little weight on it so once you hit the rear brake it won't take much force for it to lock up. Using the front brakes aggressively on a sport bike is going to shift a lot of weight forward.

If your rear "is coming off the ground" (as Sushii claims happens to him repeatedly), you're not braking properly... once again, rider error. Practice, and learn to do it right.
 
It just shows what happens to the rear when your hard on the brakes. Im not saying that just using the front hard is going to lock up the rear. Im saying if you do load up the front while braking hard, and the rear wheel comes off the ground or has little weight on it so once you hit the rear brake it won't take much force for it to lock up. Using the front brakes aggressively on a sport bike is going to shift a lot of weight forward.

And if the road is wet what is going to happen if only the front brake is used?
 
And if the road is wet what is going to happen if only the front brake is used?

Never said anything about the wet...i would think its common knowledge for people to adjust their riding technique i.e. braking to the conditions.
 
If your rear "is coming off the ground" (as Sushii claims happens to him repeatedly), you're not braking properly... once again, rider error. Practice, and learn to do it right.

When have i said repeatedly? Did i state i emergency brake every day? My point was that during emergency braking, your rear wheel has no weight (off the ground or barely touching) as all the weight is transferred to the front. I am not saying that is the basic braking technique for everyday braking.
 
Good thread to place my experience from yesterday afternoon, especially considering all the talk about front/rear breaks.

I was coming down main street at speed limit, looking to turn left at the next set of lights. There were cars stopped to my right because of a red light, but because I was going past them with the intention of turning right and not going straight, I kept my speed at the limit and made my way to the lights.

However, one of the stopped cars waved a car through from the right, that intended to make a left turn onto the street at proceed North (I was heading south).

He couldn't see me because of the cars blocking his view and the same goes for me. I saw him at the last second as his car pulled in front of me. I literally had milliseconds to respond and instinctively grabbed the front break too hard, causing the forward motion and the sudden stop to kick me right over the handle-bars where I fell right in front of the car with the bike on top of me.

I've gone over the situation in my head countless times and the only way to avoid a similar situation in the future is to ride more defensively. Knowing that stopped cars may wave a driver through who cannot see anything until it is too late, I can slow my speed next time and do what I can to ensure that the coast is clear before proceeding to the light to make my turn.

I hope this was explained well enough. The driver was charged in the incident and I was hauled to the hospital. Originally, the EMS feared a broken hip, but X-rays showed nothing but some pretty bad bruising. I'm limping but I'm alive and I'm thankful for it.

Any insight as to what can be done in the future to avoid this would be greatly appreciated.

1. Watch any gaps in cars, something is likely to come out from it.

2. Slow down when passing stopped traffic, expect something to come out from between.

3. Cover your brake.

4. Practice emergency braking so that you are able to threshold brake and ease off the front before you go over the bars.

5. get a bike with ABS.


If your rear "is coming off the ground" (as Sushii claims happens to him repeatedly), you're not braking properly... once again, rider error. Practice, and learn to do it right.

If you aren't lifting, or nearly lifting your rear end on a sport bike you aren't close to maximum braking, IMO.

I do agree that with repetitive constant practice, a very skilled rider may be able to threshold brake with their rear in an emergency and not lock it. I was never able to do that, not having that level of skill and not having the opportunity to practice for an hour a day and so I always locked the rear in an emergency braking situation. I stopped using the rear and stopped crapping my pants. Now I have ABS and don't worry about it but I also don't really care whether I add 0.5% braking by using the rear or not (that is a sarcastic estimation, I don't know the precise number other than that it's negligible).

About the only time I routinely use the rear is to set the bike up going into a corner. That and holding the stopped bike on a grade if I'm giving my hand a rest.
 
Here's a scenario: How to brake?

Roads drenched from a Heavy Rain Fall, Puddles on Road. The stop is at the end of a declining road (relatively steep for a road). Slowing from a speed of 70 k. Front Brake only? Rear Brake only? Both? How would you handle this?

First, probably not be going 70 kph downhill into a stop on a wet road.

Second, downshift.

Third, apply brakes smoothly and consistently. FWIW I'd probably use both brakes in that situation, but I would not be using the rear if it was a hard stop and I didn't have ABS.
 
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