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Coronavirus

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Substantial differences in deaths per million population at a comparable stage of the epidemic (USA started later than Europe, for example) is also a measure of how effective the country's control measures have been.

The number of deaths assigned to covid-19 can be neglected or gamed, as the case may be, but if the infection is significant, the "excess deaths" over the affected period of time is hard to cover up.
 
Still not seeing how some numbers are "insignificant".
We're guessing as to why the numbers are different.
It's not always that obvious.
Do we have a bunch of mildly infected people out roaming around?
Will our numbers start an upswing to match theirs?
Who's gaming the system and in which way?

If you're going to focus on dead bodies, then you need to look at the expected death rates without the virus and compare.

I think that one thing that this is showing, is that some, if not most of the modelling being done is crap. There are too many unknown variables.
 
Treatment for complications due to COVID are improving all the time so that can affect survivability. The most meaningful statistics would involve a number of how many ICU beds or hospital places are taken up by COVID patients requiring round the clock care. That is the crux of the problem here....not necessarily how many people are dying from COVID, but how many others are also dying because they can't get the care they need as the system is overwhelmed.

Your outcomes if you have a serious motorcycle accident in an area with high infection rates vs one with low infection rates is going to be different due to availability of facilities which are finite.

It would be good if the naysayers would think about that every now and then.
 
jc100 said:
Treatment for complications due to COVID are improving all the time so that can affect survivability. The most meaningful statistics would involve a number of how many ICU beds or hospital places are taken up by COVID patients requiring round the clock care. That is the crux of the problem here....not necessarily how many people are dying from COVID, but how many others are also dying because they can't get the care they need as the system is overwhelmed.

Your outcomes if you have a serious motorcycle accident in an area with high infection rates vs one with low infection rates is going to be different due to availability of facilities which are finite.

It would be good if the naysayers would think about that every now and then.
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True. Also if an outbreak reaches the point where there are no more ICU beds, the mortality skyrockets. My theory that mortality should be similar for populations with similar demographics is completely wrong once ICU's cannot handle the next patient in.
 
GreyGhost said:
True. Also if an outbreak reaches the point where there are no more ICU beds, the mortality skyrockets. My theory that mortality should be similar for populations with similar demographics is completely wrong once even ICU's cannot handle the next patient in.
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There's more and more stories about cancer patients getting interrupted care because of the lack of facilities in some places. That's really sad...someone that could survive if they get the care they need potentially not getting it because some dufus decided to go to a party.
 
jc100 said:
There's more and more stories about cancer patients getting interrupted care because of the lack of facilities in some places. That's really sad...someone that could survive if they get the care they need potentially not getting it because some dufus decided to go to a party.
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There was some of that in Ontario. I have no idea how to properly account for it. They purged the ICU's and delayed all surgery to ensure hospitals were at maximum available capacity in case there was a crushing Covid caseload. That caseload never materialized but there will be many many people that have been substantially affected by that preparation. I know of some people with cancer that had their surgeries delayed so now it has had many more months to grow and spread :(. Those likely won't get picked up as directly attributable to our pandemic response.
 
Brian P said:
Those situations and many more will get picked up in the "excess deaths" comparisons.
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And someone will allocate them based upon their own prejudices.
We need to go back to basic principles and work things through, step by step, using logic, rather than emotion.

My emotion says we should be doing some, if not many more of these cancer & other surgeries.

What's holding us back? Fear?

If someone's collapsed on the ground in front of us, not breathing, do we give them the breath of life?
 
elective surgeries got cancelled and many OR's were closed down but actual emergency surgeries and life threatening got into an operating room. We stopped doing gastro belting for fat people but if you had a heart attack you didn't get sent home.
 
What about things like hip and knee replacements, that won't kill you immediately, but may make you wish you were dead in ten years?
Anything quality of life seems to be cancelled due to the fear.

Meanwhile in Wuhan:
200818130226-01-wuhan-water-park-1808-super-169-Dy5o36-990x557.jpeg


Wuhan hosts massive water park party as Covid concerns recede
 
You realize that Wuhan got to that point by implementing very strict lockdown and contact-tracing procedures and mask-wearing requirements ... the same ones you seem to oppose ...
 
Brian P said:
You realize that Wuhan got to that point by implementing very strict lockdown and contact-tracing procedures and mask-wearing requirements ... the same ones you seem to oppose ...
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You wrong me. I'm ambivalent.
 

Also, I got info from some reliable sources that China is definitely "doing better" than the USA by a long shot....because they're literally wielding the doors shut in buildings if you're infected lol (for those who don't realize what this implies, they will kill the infected depending on status.)

I'm still laughing at this ****.

Honestly, I liked the COVID lockdown period. I managed to find a baby squirrel that fell from a tree while during a jog. The idiot thought I was his mom and clung onto my foot for dear life before my fiancee brought a box so we could put it in and wait for the mom (the mom came.)

I also had a chipmunk run onto my back while I was doing push ups (wtf.)

My dad's been sending me hundreds of wildlife photos (he's a photographer and also noticed the mass increase in nature.) I can see we're slowly going back to normal....I'm legit gonna be a bit sad when all the wild life is gone again.
 
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It could be called a criminal act if, despite having a choice, you opt for the one that values money over lives.
 
jc100 said:
It could be called a criminal act if, despite having a choice, you opt for the one that values money over lives.
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A bit of Trumpish chain jerking but what is the definition of taking a life?

If a person works for a week to buy something and someone steals it, hasn't the thief stolen a week of that person's life? Short of killing a newborn you only take part of a person's life.

If a person (Trump supporter) has worked for thirty years to build a business and is going to lose it all because of shut downs isn't he losing thirty years of hard work compared to an eighty year old that might lose five years.

Theoretically COVID could be wiped out in a month or so by a 100% shut down. Workers in hazmat suits deliver food to locked in people. Shoot escapees on sight. Let people die of heart attacks and appendicitis. Starvation to follow if the farms shut down.

Personally I feel Canada is doing well and would be better if it wasn't for party animals, religious huggers and self righteous non-maskers. Stay the course.
 
Sneaky Patrick is at it again.

 
Looking at the daily metrics for canada, the 7-day moving average has hovered around 400 cases per day - looks like we've found our indefinite new world order. Remains to be seen what will happen when the weather gets cooler and into winter - hopefully it does not get worse (i dont see it getting better though)
 
The real numbers of dead we will never know . The people that died from not getting their surgeries. The people that were not diagnosed with cancer and treated . The people with addictions that overdosed or made them worse . The people that were locked up with abusive partners . The mental health issues for the future from people wearing the masks . The people that have lost their life savings . The buinesses that went under . The big one is the huge deficit that will cause high taxes in the near future . The money that will be taken away from our health care system .

The cure I predict will far out weigh the sickness .
 
pfbmgd said:
The real numbers of dead we will never know . The people that died from not getting their surgeries. The people that were not diagnosed with cancer and treated . The people with addictions that overdosed or made them worse . The people that were locked up with abusive partners . The mental health issues for the future from people wearing the masks . The people that have lost their life savings . The buinesses that went under . The big one is the huge deficit that will cause high taxes in the near future . The money that will be taken away from our health care system .

The cure I predict will far out weigh the sickness .
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Number of Dead: Correct. Will never know the exact number, due to people not being tested, or no tests available, poor countries, etc.
Not Getting Surgeries: BS. If you had a surgery that was life necessary, you got it done. Period (Period).
Not Getting Diagnosed with Cancer: You feel lousy enough, you go get checked. If positive, then you get your treatments. Period (here in Canada). You don't get checked, your own fault. And yes. My immediate family has had cancer run rampant. I am decently well versed in the system about it.
People with Addictions: Treatment was always available like before. You choose not to get help, so be it.
People with Abusive Partners: I do feel sorry for them. But as with most things, there is help readily available. Police calls. Shelters. Family. Etc.
Mental Health from Wearing Masks: WTF? Seriously? Only people who have mental health issues from masks are the ones refusing to wear them, and that's a choice they are making.
People Losing Life Savings: Help is available. Sure, if you've got an extravagant life style and spend out the wazoo, well, you should have rolled back the spending. CERB is there. Every bit helps. Me, I lost my job shortly before beginning COVID. I've put out 270 applications for jobs in my field. Unfortunately, each one has 300+ applicants according to LinkedIn etc. So, I hustle and do whatever I can to make money. Temp jobs at friend's businesses, helping renovations at acquaintances homes etc etc.
Businesses that Went Under: I feel for them. Friend of mine's store went under. They are truly getting the short end of the stick.
Huge Deficit: Agreed. It's gonna suck. But, it's either that, or watch more people rely on CERB and the system to stay afloat.
Money Taken Away From Health Care: Cite proof please.
 
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