Clutchless Shifting or better shifting

[sburns]

Hey all,

I'll admit I'm not the most technical rider. I can get where I want to go, but it won't be elegant or a highly skilled.

With my new bike it's really exposes how inefficient my shifting is. I just do the normal 4 step shifting process, but I'm not twitchy about it, and everything is kinda gradual. During all that my rev's drop quite a bit so not only is my shifting process losing time, but also speed. Sure I do a couple of simple tricks to help, like keeping my foot pressed to the shifter, don't roll off the throttle etc. But still it isn't enough to speed things up.

I've been looking at improving, and came across the Clutchless Shifting method.
These two videos have the best take on it:

Having said all the that I plan to get a quick shifter.
So is it worth it to learn clutchless shifing?

Curious how many of you are doing clutchless shifting or is there another technique?

 

[Lightcycle]

I clutchless shift without a quick-shifter all the time if my left hand is too busy with texting, drinking from my coffee mug or picking my nose.

But, seriously, I take lots of pictures while riding, so can gear up or down with a camera in my left hand. It's just timing the rev drop/blip in the new gear while pre-loading the shifter.

Sure I do a couple of simple tricks to help, like keeping my foot pressed to the shifter, don't roll off the throttle etc. But still it isn't enough to speed things up.

Also, don't pull the clutch lever in all the way to shift. If your friction zone is adjusted all the way out like most bikes are, the most you'll need to do is pull in the clutch lever a few mm past the free-play to disengage the clutch and flywheel enough to shift. That should dramatically increase your shift speed rather than waiting till the clutch lever touches the grip.

 

[sburns]

I clutchless shift without a quick-shifter all the time if my left hand is too busy with texting, drinking from my coffee mug or picking my nose.

But, seriously, I take lots of pictures while riding, so can gear up or down with a camera in my left hand. It's just timing the rev drop/blip in the new gear while pre-loading the shifter.



Also, don't pull the clutch lever in all the way to shift. If your friction zone is adjusted all the way out like most bikes are, the most you'll need to do is pull in the clutch lever a few mm past the free-play to shift. That should dramatically increase your shift times rather than waiting till the clutch lever touches the grip.

Thanks, getting Pegasus vibes from that first part.

Was doing some other reading about quick-shifter which doesn't do as well with normal speeds and revs, seems you need to pin the revs to make it function well. But clutchless can work all the time, with all speeds, is this what you found?

 

[Aens]

Curious how many of you are doing clutchless shifting or is there another technique?

For upshift, clutchless is worth learning always as it'll teach you about loading the transmission. It should also take you all of 2 minutes to learn.

For downshifts, your transmission will prevent it when there is too much of a speed mismatch, but you'll hear the most alarming clacking sounds when you try. You want to rev match downshift (blip) anyways.

 

[Lightcycle]

Was doing some other reading about quick-shifter which doesn't do as well with normal speeds and revs, seems you need to pin the revs to make it function well. But clutchless can work all the time, with all speeds, is this what you found?

Depends on the implementation and manufacturer. Some work better than others, even within different models by the same manufacturer.

BMW R-bikes have been the worst. Something about that longitudinal vs traditional transverse clutch layout, but downshifts need to be done with the throttle completely off for it to auto-blip smoothly with the quickshifter. Yet BMW F and S-bikes are among the best quickshifters in the market.

Ducati and KTM have also come a long way in developing good quickshifters/auto-blippers. Best is the KTM road bikes, in my experience. My wife's 901 will up/downshift anywhere in the rev range, in any gear (including the dreaded 1-to-2 upshift) seamlessly.

 

[Aens]

Ducati and KTM have also come a long way in developing good quickshifters/auto-blippers. Best is the KTM road bikes, in my experience. My wife's 901 will up/downshift anywhere in the rev range, in any gear (including the dreaded 1-to-2 upshift) seamlessly.

On all my KTMs ridden with a quick shifter, downshift is amazing as long as you don't go more than 1 gear. Do it within the operating limits and it's awesome. Can easily do hands free to a zero at a light with the downshifts. rc390, 690 smcr, 790 duke, 790 adventure, 990 rcr.

The upshift though, needs to be on the power. 1st-2nd also is going to lurch unless its high rev. I always use the clutch on 1-2.

 

[Relax]

Also, don't pull the clutch lever in all the way to shift. If your friction zone is adjusted all the way out like most bikes are, the most you'll need to do is pull in the clutch lever a few mm past the free-play to disengage the clutch and flywheel enough to shift. That should dramatically increase your shift times rather than waiting till the clutch lever touches the grip.

This shows how little clutch lever movement is required.

 

[Relax]

I always upshift without the clutch - I'm too lazy to pull the lever.

The AT doesn't include up/down QS??? Since you're already loading the shifter, all you need to do for a clutchless upshift is back off the throttle and the shifter will slide smoothly into the next gear.

 

[sburns]

I always upshift without the clutch - I'm too lazy to pull the lever.

The AT doesn't include up/down QS??? Since you're already loading the shifter, all you need to do for a clutchless upshift is back off the throttle and the shifter will slide smoothly into the next gear.

No it's surprising it doesn't. But I believe in some other markets it is included, making it confusing when you see guides/reviews online.

 

[PacoT]

Ducati and KTM have also come a long way in developing good quickshifters/auto-blippers. Best is the KTM road bikes, in my experience. My wife's 901 will up/downshift anywhere in the rev range, in any gear (including the dreaded 1-to-2 upshift) seamlessly.

The Multi V4 is my first bike with an up/down quickshifter, and most of the time it’s buttery smooth (except when I’m trying to go from 1st to 2nd at really slow speeds talking around 15kmh)

On the Monster, the few times I was “giving it the beans,” I noticed I could rev-match and do clutchless downshifts without thinking. But I cannot 100% support this statement as it might’ve just been me getting carried away in the moment, but after each time I was like "wait I minute, did I pull that downshift without pulling the clutch???"

 

[JC99]

If you’ve just swapped bikes you probably still have muscle memory from your last bike's clutch. Pretty sure I had a similar issue. “Damn this is rough”…turns out it wasn’t, it was just slightly different.

 

[Lightcycle]

If you’ve just swapped bikes you probably still have muscle memory from your last bike's clutch.

And flywheel as well.

Harleys and other cruisers have heavier flywheels which spin down a lot slower than sportbikes, ADVs, etc. on throttle off. This gives you much more time to change gears. Moving off a cruiser to another kind of bike will probably require faster shifting to match the revs in the next gear properly.

Not sure about the VStrom. I used to ride one, but don't remember the flywheel being that heavy?

 

[Lightcycle]

@sburns, I just remembered something.

What mode are you riding in?

AT allows you to customize the engine braking strength for each mode: 1-3, 1 being the strongest.

If the new ATs are anything like the ones a couple of years old, you access the mode settings menu by touching the clock.

EB = Engine Braking

I test rode the bike with max engine braking, which I personally prefer. Perhaps you're also on 1? If so, try changing the engine braking setting to 2 or 3 for weaker engine braking. The revs might drop a lot less quickly on throttle off and allow you more time to shift.

 

[sburns]

@sburns, I just remembered something.

What mode are you riding in?

AT allows you to customize the engine braking strength for each mode: 1-3, 1 being the strongest.

If the new ATs are anything like the ones a couple of years old, you access the mode settings menu by touching the clock.

EB = Engine Braking

I test rode the bike with max engine braking, which felt normal to me. Perhaps you're also on 1? If so, try changing the engine braking setting to 2 or 3 for weaker engine braking. The revs might drop a lot less quickly on throttle off and allow you more time to shift.

Thanks, kinda makes sense.
I haven't played with that setting yet. I'm currently using the tour mode, as it has all the info I want to see. So far I've only adjusted the torque setting. EB is pretty good in the corners, but a bit harsh for downshifting when coming to a stop. Let's see what happens.

 

[Brian P]

<- grew up and learned to ride in an era before all this fancy stuff ...

Street riding, I am ON the clutch lever a lot of the time, right at the transition between just-barely-engaged and just-barely-disengaged ... not "slipping", but right at the threshold point, where it cushions the engagement of the next gear up or down, the objective being to make the gearchange imperceptible, heard (barely) via the smooth change of engine revs but not felt. Obviously this is in situations where gear changes are warranted, of course if I'm in a situation where the clutch has to be decisively engaged or disengaged then that's what I do.

My own race bike has aftermarket quickshifter for up only, which I use all the time. The bit about being right near the engagement point as described above, is used by riders better than I am, to regulate engine braking and rear wheel slip when entering a corner ... I'm not that good.

I've ridden BMW S1000RRs with OEM quickshift up and down ... it's cheating. LOL

 

[GreyGhost]

The Multi V4 is my first bike with an up/down quickshifter, and most of the time it’s buttery smooth (except when I’m trying to go from 1st to 2nd at really slow speeds talking around 15kmh)

On the Monster, the few times I was “giving it the beans,” I noticed I could rev-match and do clutchless downshifts without thinking. But I cannot 100% support this statement as it might’ve just been me getting carried away in the moment, but after each time I was like "wait I minute, did I pull that downshift without pulling the clutch???"

Slipper clutch helps you feel like a hero. As long as engine rpm is not too high, clutch solves the wheel speed being too high for engine speed. Obviously some blip helps as a big speed differential can feel weird and muddy.