Clayton Rivet death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

[kwtoxman]

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Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Yes, I understand that some people are running because of the consequences of HTA 172. The fact remains that you're risking your life over a traffic infraction.

Motorcycle riders already significantly risk their life just riding in ON traffic, so many don't consider that added risk when romping on in to be of any noteworthy concern.

 

[Rob MacLennan]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Motorcycle riders already significantly risk their life just riding in ON traffic, so many don't consider that added risk when romping on in to be of any noteworthy concern.

It's not just the 'romping' but the adrenaline issues of being pursued, which result in poor cognitive function, coupled with the other party actively trying to stop you.

 

[cbcanada]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Again, do some research as your questions were addressed however I'm guessing you think they should've gone Hollywood and shot him in the leg.

And I like how you avoided stating that she was armed with a knife.

Are you kidding?? Who cares if she had a knife or not.. What is the solution? To shoot everyone that holds a knife?

What about backing off giving the person space and waiting out the situation??

Are you telling me the text book resolution to handle some one with a knife is to shoot them??

Dont forget they are police.. Their job is to deal with some one who holds a knife .. Its the line of work their "cowboy small dick, got bullied as a kid "mentality made them choose.. Its their job!!!

So they need to deal with it..

Are you telling me they go into class and are told.. "Okay kids person pulls a knife, shoot them, class over lunch time"


"If i was educated, I'd be a damn fool"

 

[cbcanada]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Yes IF the officer placed his cruiser in a position that left the rider NO way to avoid then that is wrong. VERY few of you have ever, (as I have worked as police officer), you have MILLISECONDS to make a decision. These decisions can lead to a life altering or life ending result.

I can assure you this officer didn't go on shift that evening saying, "goodness I hope someone dies tonight" Now having lived in Keswick for many years I am familiar with the road. The cruiser could NOT have completely blocked both lanes completely. There would have been enough space for a skilled rider, riding at a responsible speed to have avoided the cruiser. BUT for me to suggest that was an option is as silly as the poster who said a single bullet to a "non lethal" part of the body by police was an option in one of the other cases. Forget what you see in the movies.

Now having said that, posters have also said the officer placed "the public in danger" by, (IF he did positioning his cruiser on the road the way he did. This is not true. It placed the rider in danger. Now seeing as everyone likes to make assumptions, assume that the officer had let the rider pass pulled a quick turn and began a pursuit. The rider takes off to run, (which given his bravdo on FB is not out of the question). The rider then collides with another vehicle and kills a family of say 4. The officer would have been crucified, for pursuing the rider. But there still would have been a tragedy.

I realize that he was your friend and it is natural to try to place blame upon others and believe your friend did nothing wrong, I am sure I would do the exact same thing. But we have to be honest, the force of the collision clearly shows that your friends bike was traveling no where near the posted limit on that road.

NO ONE deserves to die, but sometimes people do things which contribute to the seriousness of the situation. You say the rider "didn't ride beyond his ability" well I would assert in this case he rode in a manner which made it impossible for him to stop or at least slow to a speed which may have been survivable. In this case it was a police cruiser, but it could have been a motorist making a left turn or u turn, the result would have likely been the same.

But let's not waiting for the accident reconstructionist to say how fast the rider was going or any other contributing factors. Let's blame the police as we as citizens never do any wrong it HAS to be the police all the time.

Oh boy....


"If i was educated, I'd be a damn fool"

 

[Elwoodpdowd]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Are you kidding?? Who cares if she had a knife or not.. What is the solution? To shoot everyone that holds a knife?

What about backing off giving the person space and waiting out the situation??

Are you telling me the text book resolution to handle some one with a knife is to shoot them??

Dont forget they are police.. Their job is to deal with some one who holds a knife .. Its the line of work their "cowboy small dick, got bullied as a kid "mentality made them choose.. Its their job!!!

So they need to deal with it..

Are you telling me they go into class and are told.. "Okay kids person pulls a knife, shoot them, class over lunch time"


"If i was educated, I'd be a damn fool"

...


+1

 

[Paul]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Ok folks...So far..some good discussion....Let's keep it that way to keep the thread alive.

Once it turns into plain bashing for the sake of bashing (ie: cbccanada) Then it gets thrown in with the rest of the bashing.

Cheers

Paul

 

[Elwoodpdowd]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Motorcycle riders already significantly risk their life just riding in ON traffic, so many don't consider that added risk when romping on in to be of any noteworthy concern.

Well yes and no daily life is a risk, I was having coffee at Tims and a car hurdles through the glass window, not hurt just scared..

 

[cbcanada]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

This just in: The cop was simply doing a u-turn to respond to another call and misjudged the closing rate of the motorcycle due to the conditions (night time, single headlight on bike making it difficult to judge rate of speed, and excessive motorcycle speed). There was no malicious intent toward the rider whatsoever.

Okay, I made that up, but since everyone else is making up whatever stories they want I thought I'd join in.

Mods should lock this thread because it's just getting out of hand. Respect the fallen. Who are we to judge? We weren't there and we don't know what transpired.

Why not get your brain removed while your at it? There is no need for freedom of thought.. Never mind freedom of action... I will just wait to head what happened on the news. And THAT will be the truth and i will accept it and move on


"If i was educated, I'd be a damn fool"

 

[油井緋色]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

You know what I never understood?

Why is it that cops have the right to defend themselves before a situation escalates yet we all have a friend (at least I do) that is a professional fighter, meets a mugger, warns the mugger, KOs the mugger, then gets sued and loses in court.

If our court decisions are based so much on "turn the other cheek", why the **** do cops have the right to fire first? They are trained are they not? There are so many instances of "whoops, I thought he had a gun" when it wasn't a gun. I strongly believe that law enforcement should only be legally allowed to shoot back AFTER being attacked. After all, every instance of a cop killing somebody wrongly involves 5 other cops ganging up on one person. Even if one cop goes down, there are others that will "right" the situation. Firing first and ****ing up is completely wrong.

...or in this case, attempting to stop a rider by blocking them with a ****ing car.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

You know what I never understood?

Why is it that cops have the right to defend themselves before a situation escalates yet we all have a friend (at least I do) that is a professional fighter, meets a mugger, warns the mugger, KOs the mugger, then gets sued and loses in court.

If our court decisions are based so much on "turn the other cheek", why the **** do cops have the right to fire first? They are trained are they not? There are so many instances of "whoops, I thought he had a gun" when it wasn't a gun. I strongly believe that law enforcement should only be legally allowed to shoot back AFTER being attacked. After all, every instance of a cop killing somebody wrongly involves 5 other cops ganging up on one person. Even if one cop goes down, there are others that will "right" the situation. Firing first and ****ing up is completely wrong.

...or in this case, attempting to stop a rider by blocking them with a ****ing car.

Haha. That's a whole nother thread. Don't get me started with why I believe we should disarm our front line police force. It would be doing them a favor, removing all that extra responsibility. Do you think the crazy Moncton shooter would have still shot those RCMP officers if they were not armed?.....

Your post led me to another thought. One I'm not very happy about. Why does this officer get to go to work and kill somebody, then get to wait and see what happens?

If I went to work in my truck, blocked the road and killed somebody, I would be leaving in hand cuffs, spend the night in jail, then possibly be standing before a judge for a bail hearing. My RPAL would surely be suspended, possibly my drivers license, and strict conditions would be placed on me. Why does this cop get to chill out while investigation takes place?

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Yes, I understand that some people are running because of the consequences of HTA 172. The fact remains that you're risking your life over a traffic infraction.

+1.

 

[beverage]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Why not get your brain removed while your at it? There is no need for freedom of thought.. Never mind freedom of action... I will just wait to head what happened on the news. And THAT will be the truth and i will accept it and move on

My point was nobody knows the details so everyone is just speculating, and in the process they're bashing each other (you're a prime example) and bashing the deceased. I don't call that constructive; I call that being misleading, rude, and disrespectful.

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

My point was nobody knows the details so everyone is just speculating, and in the process they're bashing each other (you're a prime example) and bashing the deceased. I don't call that constructive; I call that being misleading, rude, and disrespectful.

Right now speculation is all we have. It is important though to still continue the conversation and form opinions. If someone wishes to not be involved, or wait to form an opinion, that's fine.

There have been many ideas presented as to why the officer would be at fault.

As part of any healthy conversation, I welcome any doubters to offer their opinions on how the officer could not be at fault. I tend to audit my own thoughts, and look for self doubt. I can't come up with any scenario where the rider is at fault. Can you?

 

[Emefef]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Right now speculation is all we have. It is important though to still continue the conversation and form opinions......

As part of any healthy conversation, I welcome any doubters to offer their opinions on how the officer could not be at fault.

First, if speculation is all we have and we're going to continue conversation - "we" should be more aware of the difference between speculating and concluding.
Second, two vehicles collided and none of us witnessed it. I could come up with a few scenarios for fault on either side, or combined fault. That's speculation. None of it has helped so far, because too many posters, including you, have concluded it's the cop's fault.

 

[ddusseld]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Really? You can't come up with one reason?

How about this. Rider is doing 200kph while heading down the road. Cop has a call that requires him to do a U-turn to go in the other direction. He checks the road and sees nothing and makes the U-turn. Speeding biker slams into the cop car. Possible scenario where the cop is not at fault. I am not presenting this as a "fact" or even a probable cause but it is a possibility.

This is why all of the speculation is not really worth anything. People might believe the SIU will be biased in the direction of the cop ( I tend to agree with this) but I'd suspect the crash analysis will be accurate. This is what we really need to have before any kind of meaningful dialog is created. I find it hard to believe that forming opinions based on speculation is in anyway important.

Btw, I'm not taking any sides on this. I just presented "speculation" that loosely fits what little data we have...

Right now speculation is all we have. It is important though to still continue the conversation and form opinions. If someone wishes to not be involved, or wait to form an opinion, that's fine.

There have been many ideas presented as to why the officer would be at fault.

As part of any healthy conversation, I welcome any doubters to offer their opinions on how the officer could not be at fault. I tend to audit my own thoughts, and look for self doubt. I can't come up with any scenario where the rider is at fault. Can you?

 

[Paul]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Right now speculation is all we have. It is important though to still continue the conversation and form opinions. If someone wishes to not be involved, or wait to form an opinion, that's fine.

There have been many ideas presented as to why the officer would be at fault.

As part of any healthy conversation, I welcome any doubters to offer their opinions on how the officer could not be at fault. I tend to audit my own thoughts, and look for self doubt. I can't come up with any scenario where the rider is at fault. Can you?

Do you really think it's respectful to the fallen rider to have numerous posts speculating why the cop mat not be at fault?

Talking in person about these things is different than posting on a forum where family can read.

 

[msatrakkoic]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I feel that if it were a car speeding, no officer would blockade it with their car to stop it...

 

[hedo2002]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Well we can continue to speculate as to why the cruiser was in the position it was, (U turn to respond to a call, pulled out to block bike, saw bike entering his lane and tried to avoid collision, etc), but we have no idea why it was were it was.

According to his friend the rider never rode beyond his capabilities. Although his own FB page seems to indicate he liked to ride VERY fast. We have NO idea if he was speeding, if he was target fixated, if he was sleepy and therefore, reaction times were slowed, had he been drinking, did he pin it when he saw the cruiser. Again WE have no idea. that is why I am suggesting we wait until the investigation is complete. In this case it was police cruiser, the officer is due the same level of due process as are any of us. For the poster who said they would be in cuffs in a cell overnight. That simply is not the case. If someone in a civic turns left in front of a biker they are charged, (once the investigation is complete). They WOULD be taken into custody, if they were suspected of impaired driving or some other criminal offence, HTA 172 etc. Also if they represented a flight risk.

Now having said that MOST of the invcesitgation is done at the scene by the police in the case of a civilain. In this case the investigation is being conducted by the SIU, an outside agency. I would have to check if the SIU even has powers of arrest.

 

[coyo]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

Do you really think it's respectful to the fallen rider to have numerous posts speculating why the cop mat not be at fault?

Talking in person about these things is different than posting on a forum where family can read.

It's a 2-way street and no one seems to have any issue with speculating why the cop may be at fault. And who knows at this point; maybe the cop's NOT at fault but currently dealing with the trauma of having been involved in someone's death.

It's a public forum, anyone has the choice to read or not read.

I'll say it again; it's a tragic situation either way it played out. IF everyone's speculations ring true, then the appropriate action should be taken. No matter what happens, Clayton can't be brought back. RIP

 

[casacrow]

Re: Claton Rivert death and Questions Swirl around SIU investigation.

I certainly intend no disrespect to the family. I would feel they have just as many questions, and are not likely sitting waiting for SIU to draw conclusions either.

I asked for someone to tell me how the rider could be at fault, as I see no possible way. The majority of speculation is saying the officer was at fault. Everyone else is simply content on waiting for SIU decision. Fact is, the majority that have an opinion, sway towards one direction. Majority rules.....

I know of at least 2 people here including myself that have been to the crash site. To both of us, the situation and fault is pretty clear. Again, I welcome and encourage others to visit and see for themselves. It may likely allow you to form a solid opinion.

So the possible reasons for rider to be at fault.... Target fixation, tired, impaired,speeding..... None of this would matter. It could have changed the outcome, but does not change the fact the the cruiser was in a place that it shouldn't have been.

If the officer was turning around, then he was still negligent. There is simply not enough turning radius for a quick Uturn. If they were making a 3 point turn they were still negligent. Whether a vehicle was speeding or not, the view down the road is restricted due to the rise of the road. Too much time would be spent making the turn, that even someone following the speed limit would soon be on them, or what about the possibility of an approaching emergency vehicle?

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