News: Audi bought Ducati for the fleet carbon credits to average with their guzzlers. They did not buy them because they care about motorcycles, its just an EEU loophole.
Buell EBR racing unveil the 1190RX
- Thread starter Kool
- Start date
Who was the first to do this?
They recalled all their framew, is there something I can read indicating that?
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Is there something we can read indicating this too?
There would be no positive impact on corporate carbon credits either since Ducati is obviously a net producer of CO2.
As far as I know, auto and bike emissions are not lumped together in Europe or the US. Even if they were (which would be pretty damned idiotic), it's impossible to conceive how Ducati would have any noticeable impact on average fuel consumption or emissions since emissions are far worse, consumption is slightly better, but Ducati would represent less than 1/2 a percent of the conglomerate's annual vehicle sales. http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/04/audi-buys-ducati/
There would be no positive impact on corporate carbon credits either since Ducati is obviously a net producer of CO2.
No, CO2 emissions run in line with fuel consumption so it's a bit better than for cars, but other emissions are far worse.
The CO2 emissions of vehicles is not counted against their producer when it comes to carbon taxes in the same way that fuel economy is attributed to them to help implement CAFE regulations. CO2 emissions are attributed to the vehicle's user. The producer is taxed based on the CO2 emissions of their whole industrial processes. Producing more vehicles can't reduce Audi's carbon footprint, even if they were zero emissions vehicles, unless they somehow figured out some carbon-negative methods of production.
Every manufacturer has had issues...you take moments in time and generalize. Then throw in made up stuff...why comment?
-D-
Banned
@CafeRay
So what you are saying is Harley did not due their due diligence for quality control when they went to acquire Buell.
I'd assume since bikes have next to no emission controls that their emissions would be much worse.
Also, Audi/VW makes plenty of cars that get better fuel economy than most bikes. My 650R got worse gas mileage than most small cars and Ducatis get much worse. Their diesels use probably 2/3 what most bikes use.
SlowMo
Well-known member
Harley acquired Buell because HD was supplying them with their engines. HD also wanted to buy a company which they would consider a "stepping stone" for riders - Buell is intro bike, graduating to Harley. Considering their close ties due to engine sales, it made sense to acquire Buell at the time.
Emissions are much worse, except for CO2 emissions because there is no control for CO2. Emissions controls work on reducing HC, NOx, CO, particulate, and other noxious stuff. CO2 is harmless except to the climate, and I don't believe there exists any effective way to reduce CO2. So CO2 emissions tend to be directly proportional to fuel consumption, and average fuel consumption tends to be lower on bikes than cars.
However you did make me realise that Ducati doesn't make any small bikes, so their average fuel consumption will be closer to the average for cars, maybe even above. Not that it matters though, as I said FLEET fuel consumption doesn't count bikes, and carbon taxes don't count CO2 that is emitted by a given industry's products, only their PROCESS.
But maybe CafeRay will reply with his sources and teach me something new.
toshison
Well-known member
So much misinformation here about Buell.
HD still owns the company known as "Buell". EBR is Erik Buell's new company.
The reason HD shut down Buell is quite simple. The new CEO who was appointed in 2009 following the 08/09 global financial crisis felt that the ROI for every dollar spent was higher investing in HD than it was investing in Buell. Sales of Buell motorcycles were actually on the rise and Buell's were getting better and better but ultimately it comes down to dollars and cents and HD's bring in more money. Not just talking about unit sales but also in added parts & accessories and merchandise as well. The decision was to focus exclusively on Harleys alone.
You might also recall that HD acquired MV Augusta but after the shift to focus exclusively on HD, sold the brand without really doing anything with it.
Had it not been for that 08/09 global financial crisis that really laid a beating on motorcycle manufacturers, I think Buell would still exist under HD's umbrella and so would MV Augusta. Timing just wasn't on Erik Buell's side. He was just gaining momentum and starting to build the kind of bike he wanted to build (the 1125) when they chopped his balls off.
HD still owns the company known as "Buell". EBR is Erik Buell's new company.
The reason HD shut down Buell is quite simple. The new CEO who was appointed in 2009 following the 08/09 global financial crisis felt that the ROI for every dollar spent was higher investing in HD than it was investing in Buell. Sales of Buell motorcycles were actually on the rise and Buell's were getting better and better but ultimately it comes down to dollars and cents and HD's bring in more money. Not just talking about unit sales but also in added parts & accessories and merchandise as well. The decision was to focus exclusively on Harleys alone.
You might also recall that HD acquired MV Augusta but after the shift to focus exclusively on HD, sold the brand without really doing anything with it.
Had it not been for that 08/09 global financial crisis that really laid a beating on motorcycle manufacturers, I think Buell would still exist under HD's umbrella and so would MV Augusta. Timing just wasn't on Erik Buell's side. He was just gaining momentum and starting to build the kind of bike he wanted to build (the 1125) when they chopped his balls off.
Maybe Erik helped chopped off his own balls. I don't think Harley was interested in selling bikes with another manufacturer's motor.
toshison
Well-known member
Nope. If HD didn't want him using externally sourced motors, they would of stopped him from doing so.
"Interestingly enough though, the move could have been a strategic one for the Italian automaker, which faces fines as it struggles to meet European’s strict standards on vehicle emissions. By combining Lamborghini with Ducati, which manufactures vehicles that burn fewer emissions, Lamborghini could offset the difference and avoid some of those costly fines."
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/08/ducati-actually-bought-by-lamborghini-not-audi.html
Technically, Lamborghini bought Ducati.
Harley is interested in profits. Period. Buell never made them money. I don't see this solo venture being any different. Harley has always struggled with the sport bike market, even with their ironic named "Sportster".
Maybe they will pay attention to the Cafe builders this time. Although Buell had big problems with recalls, it's fair to say that Harley in general has problems with recalls.
SlowMo
Well-known member
Actually, the motor in the V-Rod was supposed to go into a Buell sport bike. It was designed by Porsche (not sure who manufactures it currently).
HD decided they wanted a liquid cooled bike after seeing the design. They promptly added 70 pounds of dead weight metal to make the engine shape more visually pleasing and so that it flowed with the lines of the V-Rod more. At that point Buell threw their arms in the air and walked away, because it was now unusable for a serious sport bike.
awyala
Guest
I could be wrong, but from what I can recall Buell was criticized for using under powered HD engines generating peak 135hp or something in that ballpark which ultimately let down the performance of Buell's sport bikes. Though his chassis and designs, centre of mass, oil resevior swing arm, fuel in the frame, single brake rotor, etc, was all considered revolutional and "perfectly balanced on track", ultimately this "balance" was only coping with 135hp as compared to his competitors. So even his design pedigree didn't quite stand up.
It was rumored he had complained to HD about their engines and was looking to alternatives. He wasn't happy and felt he could produce a bike to silence his critics and realize his potential. Scratch that...DID look into alternatives for the 1125R (even still mustering only 146 hp). Not really sure how all that went down over at HD HQ but that and the financial crisis did him in. His success in AMA while the class declined actually hurt him as well, where the 1125R wins came against lower spec bikes (GSXR 600s and R6s) while the whole AMA class fell apart. All in all, timing PLUS lack luster performance and sales hurt Buell.
Also, his heyday of the lightining were coming to an end. Though not needing to meet any perfomance criteria, it somehow didn't reach cult status of say...the Monster. And as such it was not enough to carry the brand, especially in the US where they are cruiser or stretched-Busa mad!
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Bet those huge low HP engines have buttloads of torque, though.
Must be really bad for most insurance companies, though.
Must be really bad for most insurance companies, though.
