Battery check device

[Chris-CJ]

As an adjunct to the "Lithium vs AGM" post, I learnt that the Lithium's will die without warning vs the AGM's indicating their gradual deterioration. So, now I need a Lithium battery tester and no, the standard AGM or Flooded battery tester will not work due to the difference in construction and chemistry of each.
Any ideas/suggestions?

 

[GreyGhost]

As an adjunct to the "Lithium vs AGM" post, I learnt that the Lithium's will die without warning vs the AGM's indicating their gradual deterioration. So, now I need a Lithium battery tester and no, the standard AGM or Flooded battery tester will not work due to the difference in construction and chemistry of each.
Any ideas/suggestions?

Huh? If they die without warning, how will a tester catch that? Even if the tester stresses beyond the starter, if the capacity slope is steep that means really frequent testing would be required. I would not be buying and expensive lithium tester for personal use.

 

[Lightcycle]

What kind of bike are you running?

Admittedly, I've only been using Lithium batteries for three years now, so I haven't experienced a failure yet, but most modern motorcycles are governed by a cadre of electronic circuitry that will also experience quick failures on AGM batteries with no warning at all, because the electronics require a minimum voltage level and once the battery fails to deliver this voltage, it will simply not operate. The ignition system will not be your first sign of battery degradation.

Only an older bike or something simple like a dirtbike/enduro will warn you of a failing battery because it will be slow to crank.

I wouldn't bother with a tester. Just treat it like an AGM and replace when it fails. Hopefully you're not in the middle of nowhere when that happens...

 

[Chris-CJ]

What kind of bike are you running?

Admittedly, I've only been using Lithium batteries for three years now, so I haven't experienced a failure yet, but most modern motorcycles are governed by a cadre of electronic circuitry that will also experience quick failures on AGM batteries with no warning at all, because the electronics require a minimum voltage level and once the battery fails to deliver this voltage, it will simply not operate. The ignition system will not be your first sign of battery degradation.

Only an older bike or something simple like a dirtbike/enduro will warn you of a failing battery because it will be slow to crank.

I wouldn't bother with a tester. Just treat it like an AGM and replace when it fails. Hopefully you're not in the middle of nowhere when that happens...

The ride?
A German bike with a fussy CANBUS !
The lithium battery is estimated to have a lifespan of 7-10 years.
To prevent being stranded, my plan was to check the battery at the same time that I check tire pressure.
Thing is that battery testers measure voltage and the Li battery keeps a straight line voltage value and then suddenly drops and dies, not predictive like an AGM.

 

[Lightcycle]

The ride?
A German bike with a fussy CANBUS !
The lithium battery is estimated to have a lifespan of 7-10 years.
To prevent being stranded, my plan was to check the battery at the same time that I check tire pressure.
Thing is that battery testers measure voltage and the Li battery keeps a straight line voltage value and then suddenly drops and dies, not predictive like an AGM.

Yep. Then that CANBUS will probably be the initial point of failure, and not the ignition system.

In my experience with fussy German electronics, low voltage caused problems with my ABS sensors which played havoc with the old servo-controlled brakes. Also, another time my anti-theft electronic immobilizer was rendered inoperative. Bike wouldn't start because it couldn't authenticate the chip in the key.

Computer systems are binary. They're either on or off and with those kinds of systems, a failing battery won't give you any advance warning, regardless of if it's AGM or Lithium.

 

[I82l8]

My experience with AGM is opposite...dead all of a sudden.
If you google it you'll find that this is quite common for AGM batteries.

 

[OntFF]

My business is batteries... (Seriously, I sell and service batteries)

Lithium packs are made up of smaller cells in series to build up to the desired voltage; and in parallel to build up the required current - with an intelligent BCM to manage charge/discharge. There are few 'critical path' component in there; mostly in the BCM - that if they fail, the battery is no longer functional. Like any active electronic component, they can (and will) fail, and likely at the worst possible time. There's generally no warning when a small lithium pack fails... there's also no 'extra' cells to compensate for failing ones; nor the switching and intelligence to disable them...

Lead acid, be it AGM, gel or flooded - are simpler; but again, multiple cells built up to the desired voltage - 99.9% of the time in 2v blocks (3 cells for 6v, 6 cells for 12v, etc) - but the cells themself are sized for the current, so they are a much simpler internally. Failure modes for lead acid are pretty straight forward; they short out, dry out, or suffer physical damage... Sulfination and plate growth also reduce capacity, but that's more a factor of age then anything else. A load tester or conductance tester can see if they're drying out or starting to short (internal resistance goes down, so self discharge goes up, and capacity goes down); or if sulfination is reducing capacity. Plate growth usually shows either as internal shorting, or physical deformity of the case, depending on the construction of the battery itself. Lead acid will usually show signs it's failing (lower voltage under load - so slow cranking; diming lights, electrical 'gremlins') rather then just kick catastrophically.

Lithium's not the end-all be-all that some vendors have been selling it as - it's good technology, and has a place - but the shine is coming off a little... it doesn't last as long as advertised, and it's essentially not recyclable (25ish percent of a lithium battery (more or less - depending on specific chemistry) can be recycled, the rest is hazardous waste; 94-97% of a lead acid battery is recycled)... but Lithium is also lighter and more energy dense - for for weight and size concerns, it's a winner; it's also less affected by high temperatures, so high-heat applications make sense as well.

Back to the question - there's not a lot of testing available for small lithium... Conductance doesn't work; load testing is more likely to wreck the battery rather then give you useful information... larger lithium, over 100aH or so, often have CANBus ports so you can actively monitor state of health, etc - but for small packs, your best bet is to hope it doesn't strand you somewhere too awkward.

 

[PrivatePilot]

but Lithium is also lighter and more energy dense

And can also be discharged deeply without damage, unlike lead acid.

This is one big reason why they are taking over aftermarket / upgrade RV industry - a 100ah lithium can provide almost that full 100ah. A 100ah deep cycle can really only provide about 50ah before you reach the SOC territory where you're starting to damage the battery.

Coupled with drastically less weight for the same capacity, in storage usages like this (vs simple engine starting loads), they are superior in many ways.

 

[Chris-CJ]

My business is batteries... (Seriously, I sell and service batteries)

Lithium packs are made up of smaller cells in series to build up to the desired voltage; and in parallel to build up the required current - with an intelligent BCM to manage charge/discharge. There are few 'critical path' component in there; mostly in the BCM - that if they fail, the battery is no longer functional. Like any active electronic component, they can (and will) fail, and likely at the worst possible time. There's generally no warning when a small lithium pack fails... there's also no 'extra' cells to compensate for failing ones; nor the switching and intelligence to disable them...

Lead acid, be it AGM, gel or flooded - are simpler; but again, multiple cells built up to the desired voltage - 99.9% of the time in 2v blocks (3 cells for 6v, 6 cells for 12v, etc) - but the cells themself are sized for the current, so they are a much simpler internally. Failure modes for lead acid are pretty straight forward; they short out, dry out, or suffer physical damage... Sulfination and plate growth also reduce capacity, but that's more a factor of age then anything else. A load tester or conductance tester can see if they're drying out or starting to short (internal resistance goes down, so self discharge goes up, and capacity goes down); or if sulfination is reducing capacity. Plate growth usually shows either as internal shorting, or physical deformity of the case, depending on the construction of the battery itself. Lead acid will usually show signs it's failing (lower voltage under load - so slow cranking; diming lights, electrical 'gremlins') rather then just kick catastrophically.

Lithium's not the end-all be-all that some vendors have been selling it as - it's good technology, and has a place - but the shine is coming off a little... it doesn't last as long as advertised, and it's essentially not recyclable (25ish percent of a lithium battery (more or less - depending on specific chemistry) can be recycled, the rest is hazardous waste; 94-97% of a lead acid battery is recycled)... but Lithium is also lighter and more energy dense - for for weight and size concerns, it's a winner; it's also less affected by high temperatures, so high-heat applications make sense as well.

Back to the question - there's not a lot of testing available for small lithium... Conductance doesn't work; load testing is more likely to wreck the battery rather then give you useful information... larger lithium, over 100aH or so, often have CANBus ports so you can actively monitor state of health, etc - but for small packs, your best bet is to hope it doesn't strand you somewhere too awkward.

Thank you for sharing the details.

 

[Chris-CJ]

@OntFF, @PrivatePilot, @Lightcycle

- Can I use a multimeter to check the voltage and/or resistance of the LiFePO4 battery?

- How about this device from Optimate?

OptiMate TEST – State of Charge - OptiMate

The OptiMate TEST - State of Charge is a 12V battery tester for all 12V lead-acid and 12.8/13.2V lithium batteries. Find out more!

optimate1.com

Thanks!

​

 

[GreyGhost]

@OntFF, @PrivatePilot P, @Lightcycle

- Can I use a multimeter to check the voltage and/or resistance of the LiFePO4 battery?

- How about this device from Optimate?

OptiMate TEST – State of Charge - OptiMate

The OptiMate TEST - State of Charge is a 12V battery tester for all 12V lead-acid and 12.8/13.2V lithium batteries. Find out more!

optimate1.com

Thanks!

​

While you can use a multimeter to test the internal resistance of the battery, you need more components to do it. If you just try and measure resistance across the terminals, you will get nothing useful (and in a terrible meter, you could let the smoke out). Now, asssuming you did properly test internal resistance, then what? What number is good, what number is bad? I've done it before just for fun the the data didn't mean much to me. You put a high wattage resistor (say 10 ohms) across the battery. That should give you about 1.2 amps in the circuit. You need to measure voltage and current simultaneously. Divide and subtract to get battery internal resistance. R=V/I so if you measure 12v, 1.0 A, R=12 ohms. Measure your resistor and wiring to make sure it is 10 ohms, then subtract to get battery internal resistance is ~2 ohms. Internal resistance can change depending on amperage requested but the resistor bank required quickly gets out of hand (both price and size). I think the biggest I have are 100 watt , 100 ohm resistors and they are the size of paper towel rolls.

A multimeter can safely test the voltage. The linked device is just a pretty voltmeter with a useful scale on it.

 

[Chris-CJ]

While you can use a multimeter to test the internal resistance of the battery, you need more components to do it. If you just try and measure resistance across the terminals, you will get nothing useful (and in a terrible meter, you could let the smoke out). Now, asssuming you did properly test internal resistance, then what? What number is good, what number is bad? I've done it before just for fun the the data didn't mean much to me. You put a high wattage resistor (say 10 ohms) across the battery. That should give you about 1.2 amps in the circuit. You need to measure voltage and current simultaneously. Divide and subtract to get battery internal resistance. R=V/I so if you measure 12v, 1.0 A, R=12 ohms. Measure your resistor and wiring to make sure it is 10 ohms, then subtract to get battery internal resistance is ~2 ohms. Internal resistance can change depending on amperage requested but the resistor bank required quickly gets out of hand (both price and size). I think the biggest I have are 100 watt , 100 ohm resistors and they are the size of paper towel rolls.

A multimeter can safely test the voltage. The linked device is just a pretty voltmeter with a useful scale on it.

@GreyGhost thank you!
Would a measurement of voltage across the terminals of the Lithium battery be any sort of indication of battery health?

 

[GreyGhost]

@GreyGhost thank you!
Would a measurement of voltage across the terminals of the Lithium battery be any sort of indication of battery health?

Not really. If it is within range, it tells you state of charge. If it is out of range (say 12.5 volts or less) it is in a bad place and may not recover.

I use my starter for battery monitoring. If it sounds happy, the battery is good enough for today, time to ride. Not as useful with modern electronics as some vehicles get grumpy on old batteries that start the car fine. Not sure why/how this happens. I know this happens in cars but I don't know of a bike with this issue.

 

[Lightcycle]

- Can I use a multimeter to check the voltage and/or resistance of the LiFePO4 battery?

Honestly, I haven't looked into what methodologies are used to test a Lithium battery for health. But if you have a more recent BMW with the TFT screen, you can delve into the "My Vehicle" screen and it will display the battery's voltage:



No multimeter required. But as GG pointed out, State of Charge is not necessarily an indicator of State of Health or how well the battery will keep a charge.

I use my starter for battery monitoring. If it sounds happy, the battery is good enough for today, time to ride. Not as useful with modern electronics as some vehicles get grumpy on old batteries that start the car fine. Not sure why/how this happens.

It's because starter motors are mechanical and will still (un)happily crank at 11.2 volts. Computer systems are more sensitive to voltage drops. If the electronics expect 12V, they will fail/behave erratically at voltages just under 12V.

The problem these days is that the computers are gatekeepers between the battery and the starter motor. If a system like the immobilizer can't get enough juice to authenticate the chip in your keyfob, it won't route power to the starter.

So with a lot of modern bikes, you can't even bump start a motorcycle if there's insufficient voltage for the computer.

 

[GreyGhost]

It's because starter motors are mechanical and will still (un)happily crank at 11.2 volts. Computer systems are more sensitive to voltage drops. If the electronics expect 12V, they will fail/behave erratically at voltages just under 12V.

The problem these days is that the computers are gatekeepers between the battery and the starter motor. If a system like the immobilizer can't get enough juice to authenticate the chip in your keyfob, it won't route power to the starter.

That's why sound matters more than performance. You can normally hear if the battery is tired (at least on a vehicle you have a history with).

As for fail to start, I am sad how much we rely on computers now. An old bike with a dead battery could be easily bump started. Now we have fuel pumps, computers, dct, etc and there is no way for you to get it running again without a source of electrical power. Sure, there are many advantages to the new way but damn. It's a bike. Just run damnit. Weee.

 

[Lightcycle]

That's why sound matters more than performance. You can normally hear if the battery is tired (at least on a vehicle you have a history with).

As for fail to start, I am sad how much we rely on computers now. An old bike with a dead battery could be easily bump started. Now we have fuel pumps, computers, dct, etc and their is no way for you to get it running again without a source of electrical power. Sure, there are many advantages to the new way but damn. It's a bike. Just run damnit. Weee.

LOL. You know you're an old guy when you constantly moan about how the old days were better....

A lot of advancements in technology obscure the moving parts from the user and moves the configurability, modification and serviceability away from the owner to the shop. Proof of this is in the shrinking toolkits that are provided with newer motorcycles, as well as the difficulty in getting service manuals. You don't need a wrench if the only thing capable of fixing your bike is a credit card.

Good for the shop, bad for the enthusiast.

 

[Chris-CJ]

No more kickstarters
It was only a 350 but who, among you remember the vicious kick back of the Enfield?
(Did I just period date myself?!!)


Thanks for all the replies!

 

[Lightcycle]

It was only a 350 but who, among you remember the vicious kick back of the Enfield?
(Did I just period date myself?!!)

Raises hand.

We rode Bullet 500s in India. They weren't that old, I believe they were 2007 models and by that time, they were equipped with starter motors. However, they tended to seize, so our bikes had the starters disabled. We had to kickstart the bike every time we hopped on them. We were told/taught the proper technique to kick them over, but that didn't prevent us from getting bruises on the inside of our legs when the f-n thing kicked back.

Heard horror stories of people being launched over the handlebars, but thankfully, we never experienced that...

 

[bitzz]

If your 180 or 360 degree twin kicks back at you, you're either doing it wrong or you've got too much timing.
Nudge it just past compression and HOOF... you don't really kick it, you want to accelerate as the kick start goes down. You're not trying to kick it past compression, you're trying to impart inertia into the flywheel.
V or L twins take a bit more finesse.
I used to belong to a BBS newsgroup; The Bevelheads, and we had an ongoing contest to see who could do the most damage to themselves trying to start their bike.
The best I could do was a cracked bone in my foot and about 15 stitches
A guy in Cali had a pic of his leg that was so swollen from his knee down,it looked like a purple sausage with toenails.
The winner... well not really... was trying to start his brand new rebuilt bike in his garage, he did it wrong and kicked back REAL GOOD, and he smacked his head on a steel beam, caved in his head and now he's gibbled.
If you like trying to kick over a low compression 350, I'll give you a shot at my high compression, long stroke Norton 750.

 

[Chris-CJ]

Ok, back on the rails.
What is your take on this device?

Lithium Battery Tracker

The Antigravity Battery Tracker is a Bluetooth Monitoring system for your 12v Lithium Battery’s health. Track its voltage, starting performance and charging.

antigravitybatteries.com