Air India Crash

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nobbie48

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Every pilot with a YouTube channel is speculating on the event. One survivor.

It seems that both fuel valves were shut off a few seconds after takeoff. The switches are designed so they can't accidentally be bumped off.

Any conspiracy theorists?
 
There's basically three possibilities:

-The design of the switches was flawed and DID allow them to be bumped off
-They were switched off due to some muscle memory process (A happened, therefore I automatically do B, C, etc), possibly relating to a different aircraft
-They were switched off due to some nefarious sabotage attempt from one of the pilots
 
TwistedKestrel said:
-They were switched off due to some muscle memory process (A happened, therefore I automatically do B, C, etc), possibly relating to a different aircraft.
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If Air India operates as Air Canada does, pilots fly one aircraft type only. Also if they have both Boeing and Airbus in their fleet, you do not fly both makes. My commercial student first started on an Airbus with AC and they later switched him to Boeing (FO on a 767, then FO on a 777, then captain on a 737 MAX 8 which lasted a few months before they were grounded and then captain on a 787-9)
 
I've seen shear pins pop on tow-bars as the captain will set the brake and forget to release on a pushback. be nice to say everything was perfect but not in this world
 
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ToSlow said:
I've seen shear pins pop on tow-bars as the captain will set the brake and forget to release on a pushback. be nice to say everything was perfect but not in this world
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Nahhh, that guy wasn't my student.
 
MCT said:
If Air India operates as Air Canada does, pilots fly one aircraft type only. Also if they have both Boeing and Airbus in their fleet, you do not fly both makes. My commercial student first started on an Airbus with AC and they later switched him to Boeing (FO on a 767, then FO on a 777, then captain on a 737 MAX 8 which lasted a few months before they were grounded and then captain on a 787-9)
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Ok. Neither pilot started off by flying a 787
 
TwistedKestrel said:
Ok. Neither pilot started off by flying a 787
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I never said they did.

What I said if neither of the two pilots on board flew an Airbus 330 yesterday and and a Boeing 787-9 the next day They do not mix aircraft and you are always best off being in one and having it like a second skin. You know where everything is.
 
ToSlow said:
I've seen it more than once
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Back in the days when I was instructing. This transient flew in, parked on our ramp and he still had his rudder lock in place. You know the two pieces of 1 x 3 lumber with a threaded rod and wing nuts. Obviously he never knew what a control lock is. And his run-up prior to take-off must have been non-existent otherwise he would have known. I could go on with the things I have seen.

Yup, a very few have it and most don't.
 
TwistedKestrel said:
There's basically three possibilities:

-The design of the switches was flawed and DID allow them to be bumped off
-They were switched off due to some muscle memory process (A happened, therefore I automatically do B, C, etc), possibly relating to a different aircraft
-They were switched off due to some nefarious sabotage attempt from one of the pilots
Click to expand...

There’s another option - they were trying to command an auto relight after a flameout. Flipping the FCO’s to off and back on again when the WOW (Weight On Wheels) switches have put their plane into airborne vs ground logic will cause the FADEC to go through an automatic relight process.

Now, that said, there was no way there was remotely enough time for that to actually happen, but in the split seconds they did have they were perhaps trying anything and everything to get a relight, which could explain the switches being in the off position if they were put there moments after the flameout/cutoff and then something got in the way of the process of flipping them back up.

There is absolutely positively zero chance they were both flipped off accidentally. I’ve toggled these switches before, you need to grasp them from underneath, pull them out, and only then will they move. It requires absolute intent. Even having this happen with 1, much less 2 would be effectively impossible.

However they got there, they were placed in cutoff mode intentionally. Why, well, that’s where it comes to waiting for the investigation vs jumping to conclusions.
 
PrivatePilot said:
There’s another option - they were trying to command an auto relight after a flameout. Flipping the FCO’s to off and back on again when the WOW (Weight On Wheels) switches have put their plane into airborne vs ground logic will cause the FADEC to go through an automatic relight process.

Now, that said, there was no way there was remotely enough time for that to actually happen, but in the split seconds they did have they were perhaps trying anything and everything to get a relight, which could explain the switches being in the off position if they were put there moments after the flameout/cutoff and then something got in the way of the process of flipping them back up.

There is absolutely positively zero chance they were both flipped off accidentally. I’ve toggled these switches before, you need to grasp them from underneath, pull them out, and only then will they move. It requires absolute intent. Even having this happen with 1, much less 2 would be effectively impossible.

However they got there, they were placed in cutoff mode intentionally. Why, well, that’s where it comes to waiting for the investigation vs jumping to conclusions.
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Maybe and that seemed plausible when the switch information was first released but in the wake of the CVR discussions, that path seems exceedingly unlikely. Pilot asked copilot why he flipped switches off. Copilot said he hadn't touched them. Did pilot flip them and was poisoning the tape? Did co-pilot flip and was poisoning the tape? Was there someone else in cockpit that could have flipped switches?

Was there some electrical malfunction? If I understand correctly, switches were mechanically off in the wreckage but there could be a remote possibility that the computer thought they were on since start and the switches were never mechanically switched on. That could explain the cockpit confusion if the computer decided they were off (although switching off one second apart really seems like a human flipping switches).

As you said, pull up, flip switch and release done twice accidentally is almost impossible. If they were hit hard enough to break the gate/lock, I assume that information would have been released at the first mention of switches in the investigation.
 
Not sure about everyone else, but some things I do as part of my day now are either muscle memory, or often, done without even realizing I’ve done them. Sometimes some of them are incorrect - I’m sure anyone here who has driven enough miles has in a split second of dumb turned their wrong signal on for example, left when turning right, or turned it on for a curve in the road that really didn’t need a signal to begin with. Just this past Sunday I drove behind someone on highway 7 who left his windshield wipers on for a half hour after the rain had stopped and the sun came out.

People do dumb things sometimes, and I’m sure in a sheer panic real life emergency where you only have seconds to live, that could extend to pilots as well. When I was doing my flight training I’d often forget to (simulate) turning off the fuel valve(s) during a forced approach simulation because it’s part remembered processes and part muscle memory, and sometimes when you’re processing an emergency all while looking for a place to land, dealing with processes and airspeeds and traffic and trying to restart etc etc, your brain goes to mush.

I don’t doubt ATP’s are not immune to mistakes or just plain “why the **** did I just do that/why didn’t I do that/I don’t even remember doing that” scenarios.

I’m not saying that this won’t ultimately be deemed a suicide thing, but I’m just saying that there remain other possibilities.
 
I’m just saying that there remain other possibilities.
PrivatePilot said:
...that’s where it comes to waiting for the investigation vs jumping to conclusions.
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Exactly what Wingboy said and why I have zero use for armchair pilots on YouTube with zero time as PIC. The other guy I cannot stand is Richard Quest spewing off on TV on ML 370, etc.
 
MCT said:
I’m just saying that there remain other possibilities.


Exactly what Wingboy said and why I have zero use for armchair pilots on YouTube with zero time as PIC. The other guy I cannot stand is Richard Quest spewing off on TV on ML 370, etc.
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Quest is annoying AF, immediate channel change.
 
Glenn/RZ500 said:
Quest is annoying AF, immediate channel change.
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Bingo, but I watch him to see how stupid he can get. Other than that, I do not waste my time with that clown.

When those two B737 MAX 8 went in within months of each other, I do not waste my time on YouTube, etc. I call my old commercial student who was just made captain on that aircraft months before those crashes, and I ask him what info he got from TC and AC. He already had 16 years as First Officer on a B767 and 5 years as First Officer on a B777.

Other YouTube pilots I have also confidence in are Mentour Pilot and Blancolirio (Juan Brown?) who are airline pilots and get into details that would confuse most. Not an issue!
 
Glenn/RZ500 said:
Or going downstairs to get bread out of the freezer, what the hell am I getting?
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Yeah, I go down into the basement to get a tool and when I can't remember what I wanted, the toolbox drawers get pulled out. LOL
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