3D printer or desktop CNC

Rob MacLennan

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Just wondering if anyone here has gone for a 3D printer or some sort of desktop CNC rig? I'm toying with the idea of picking up one or the other, over the next year, but wondering about the experiences of others. These are the two things that have piqued my interest:

Othermill:

[video=youtube;ZXuTtFx6H7I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXuTtFx6H7I[/video]
 
I have a desktop 3D printer, A Prusa. Whatcha wanna know about?

It looks similar to this. There are many variations of this design, but the basics are similar. Arduino brains, NEMA stepper motors, all parts other than the rods and bolts are printed on another printer.

Its kinda cool knowing that you can replicate the thing whenever you want.



prusa_frame_with_all_axes.jpg
 
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I have a desktop 3D printer, A Prusa. Whatcha wanna know about?

It looks similar to this. There are many variations of this design, but the basics are similar. Arduino brains, NEMA stepper motors, all parts other than the rods and bolts are printed on another printer.

Its kinda cool knowing that you can replicate the thing whenever you want.



prusa_frame_with_all_axes.jpg

The most interesting thing seems to be that the control electronic and functional parts of both types of machine are remarkably similar.

Looks like you didn't opt for a printer with a heated bed. Do you print exclusively in PLA?

One of the first things that many people seem to print, when they buy a Printrbot, is the main gear pair to replace the laser-cut wooden gears.
 
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I work in CNC now, pretty interesting stuff!
However, I think it will be obsolete in a a few decades. Will be replaced by 3d printers
 
Sorry, that one is not mine, just a pic I found online of the design. Yes I print on a heated bed. I think u have to. I print abs only no pla. Some people print directly on glass but I could never get it to do that reliably. I print on blue painters tape stuck to the glass. They are similar in design because they all developed from the same open source 3d printer design.

I bought mine assembled locally and think it was worth it for a bit extra $$ over a kit. You still have to fine tune the software for proper printing size but that's actually fun.

I use sketch up to design, another free program to confirm its manifold (printable) and slicer to create the gcode. I've had it for a year and other than some hot end heater wire issues from the guy using solid copper wires its been dead reliable. The hard part is finding a good source of abs filament. I bought some and it was crap. Hit and miss really.

The most interesting thing seems to be that the control electronic and functional parts of both types of machine are remarkably similar.

Looks like you didn't opt for a printer with a heated bed. Do you print exclusively in PLA?

One of the first things that many people seem to print, when they buy a Printrbot, is the main gear pair to replace the laser-cut wooden gears.
 
I work in CNC now, pretty interesting stuff!
However, I think it will be obsolete in a a few decades. Will be replaced by 3d printers

Depends on the type of 3D printer and the application. For example I doubt that the average home user will ever have a laser sintering rig to 3D print with metal. Powder layer printing isn't exactly home style stuff either, so making stuff with moving parts in one go isn't likely. CNC may not be able to do voids in solid objects, but it has the advantage of being able to work with a wide variety of materials. That's why I'm considering something like the Othermill; it supposedly will work aluminum, copper, brass, and other similar softer metals.

Sorry, that one is not mine, just a pic I found online of the design. Yes I print on a heated bed. I think u have to. I print abs only no pla. Some people print directly on glass but I could never get it to do that reliably. I print on blue painters tape stuck to the glass. They are similar in design because they all developed from the same open source 3d printer design.

I bought mine assembled locally and think it was worth it for a bit extra $$ over a kit. You still have to fine tune the software for proper printing size but that's actually fun.

I use sketch up to design, another free program to confirm its manifold (printable) and slicer to create the gcode. I've had it for a year and other than some hot end heater wire issues from the guy using solid copper wires its been dead reliable. The hard part is finding a good source of abs filament. I bought some and it was crap. Hit and miss really.

I've seen demos of people printing straight onto the heated surface, without tape. Tape seems to be used more with unheated rigs. The heated platform also seems to be more necessary with ABS than PLA.

From what I've seen and read it appears that different plastic sources' stuff needs a little experimentation, to find the ideal extrusion temperatures. I saw a vid of a guy who was messing around with a relatively inexpensive plastic from some industrial source. If I can find it again, I'll post the name of the company.

If you do a little searching on Youtube, you'll see a number of people who are working on their own filament extruder rigs. Now that would be interesting; taking some scrap thermoplastic and turning it into something useful.
 
Depends on the type of 3D printer and the application. For example I doubt that the average home user will ever have a laser sintering rig to 3D print with metal. Powder layer printing isn't exactly home style stuff either, so making stuff with moving parts in one go isn't likely. CNC may not be able to do voids in solid objects, but it has the advantage of being able to work with a wide variety of materials. That's why I'm considering something like the Othermill; it supposedly will work aluminum, copper, brass, and other similar softer metals.

.

3d printing will only get cheaper & more advanced as time progresses.
I've read in the last 6 mths where doctors have experimented on printing new organs using stem cells. Imagine the possibilities.

But yeah, CNC does have some advantages
 
3d printing will only get cheaper & more advanced as time progresses.
I've read in the last 6 mths where doctors have experimented on printing new organs using stem cells. Imagine the possibilities.

But yeah, CNC does have some advantages

I've seen a few videos about bioprinting and there's a TED talk on it. Here's one example:

[video=youtube;JRBa9YifVTY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRBa9YifVTY [/video]

Interesting point; the frame that the bioprinter in that video is made out of 80/20, which is an aluminum extrusion that the manufacturer refers to as "the industrial erector set." A huge number of people have used the same stuff to make small CNC rigs. There are two suppliers in the GTA.
 
Rob, seems you have a mind set as to what works and doesnt. I'm speaking from personal experience when i say i tried printing directly on the glass for days without success before switching to blue tape.

ABS filament issues arrise not from layering it and its characteristics but from impurities in the actual filament. If there is air, or moisture trapped in the filament as its being heated to be extruded it creates air pockets and steam. You start to hear popping noise as its printing and you start to see bubbles and breaks in extruded filament as its being laid down. No amount of playing with temperatures will get rid of that issue.

Depends on the type of 3D printer and the application. For example I doubt that the average home user will ever have a laser sintering rig to 3D print with metal. Powder layer printing isn't exactly home style stuff either, so making stuff with moving parts in one go isn't likely. CNC may not be able to do voids in solid objects, but it has the advantage of being able to work with a wide variety of materials. That's why I'm considering something like the Othermill; it supposedly will work aluminum, copper, brass, and other similar softer metals.



I've seen demos of people printing straight onto the heated surface, without tape. Tape seems to be used more with unheated rigs. The heated platform also seems to be more necessary with ABS than PLA.

From what I've seen and read it appears that different plastic sources' stuff needs a little experimentation, to find the ideal extrusion temperatures. I saw a vid of a guy who was messing around with a relatively inexpensive plastic from some industrial source. If I can find it again, I'll post the name of the company.

If you do a little searching on Youtube, you'll see a number of people who are working on their own filament extruder rigs. Now that would be interesting; taking some scrap thermoplastic and turning it into something useful.
 
Rob, seems you have a mind set as to what works and doesnt. I'm speaking from personal experience when i say i tried printing directly on the glass for days without success before switching to blue tape.

ABS filament issues arrise not from layering it and its characteristics but from impurities in the actual filament. If there is air, or moisture trapped in the filament as its being heated to be extruded it creates air pockets and steam. You start to hear popping noise as its printing and you start to see bubbles and breaks in extruded filament as its being laid down. No amount of playing with temperatures will get rid of that issue.

Moisture was definitely something that many people comment on, with how it screws with the print and certainly a lot of people use painter's tape, or something similar, to help hold the first layer in place.

Does your printer have a fan to cool the layer that has just been laid?
 
No, in fact cooling the plastic is not wanted. You want as much temperature in the print as possible. What happens is that the bottom layers start to cool and shrink. As more layers get put on, they are being placed hot and shrink as well. It starts to act like a bow and starts to pull the edges off the glass/tape.

Only time fans get used is when doing bridges and when doing small repetetive motions over the same spot. This repetion doesnt give the filament time to solidify and starts to mess with the print.

The controller has an output for the fan, i just havent hooked one up as i dont do a lot of bridging and if i do use repetitive motions over the same spot i slow the print down, or make sure the print head moves over to another spot before coming back to print at the original position.

You learn to work around the deficiencies in the system. learn to design your models to avoid issues.

For instance, my slicer program sometimes doesnt recognize walls thinner than 0.5mm...it simply doesnt write code for it. So i've learned to make sure my prints dont have thin walls...other times a wall thickess is such that it leaves an empty void instead of filling it. Nature of the open source beast. All the software is free and there are many different versions. In fact i use two different versions of the same slicer depending on how i want it to turn out. As one version will create different gcode from the same 3d file. Weird huh?

I can load the 3d printer software, load the gcode and line by line preview what the tool path will be, this lets me spot any issues before i start to print. If i see an issue i just alter the file in sketchup and redo the gcode.
 
Interesting timing... just started my Mendel build the other day. Working on the frame now, still gotta source and order all the bearings and then the electronics... I have an Arduino Mega kicking around here somewhere, so I think I'll be going the RAMPS route. I'm hoping to be done in January.

IMG_00000077.jpg


Rob, if you ever want to meet up to have a chat about this stuff at Ryerson just give me a shout.
 
No, in fact cooling the plastic is not wanted. You want as much temperature in the print as possible. What happens is that the bottom layers start to cool and shrink. As more layers get put on, they are being placed hot and shrink as well. It starts to act like a bow and starts to pull the edges off the glass/tape.

Only time fans get used is when doing bridges and when doing small repetetive motions over the same spot. This repetion doesnt give the filament time to solidify and starts to mess with the print.

The controller has an output for the fan, i just havent hooked one up as i dont do a lot of bridging and if i do use repetitive motions over the same spot i slow the print down, or make sure the print head moves over to another spot before coming back to print at the original position.

You learn to work around the deficiencies in the system. learn to design your models to avoid issues.

For instance, my slicer program sometimes doesnt recognize walls thinner than 0.5mm...it simply doesnt write code for it. So i've learned to make sure my prints dont have thin walls...other times a wall thickess is such that it leaves an empty void instead of filling it. Nature of the open source beast. All the software is free and there are many different versions. In fact i use two different versions of the same slicer depending on how i want it to turn out. As one version will create different gcode from the same 3d file. Weird huh?

I can load the 3d printer software, load the gcode and line by line preview what the tool path will be, this lets me spot any issues before i start to print. If i see an issue i just alter the file in sketchup and redo the gcode.

Well I started this thread to learn and I'm glad that I did, because I certainly am. So my assumption about the purpose of the fan was correct, but I was wrong in assuming that it's use is universal. I had thought that the heated bed would minimize the curling of the plastic, but obviously everything is a balancing act.

Are you finding that you're constantly tweaking your settings and how you use the slicer programme, or have you pretty much gotten your output to be as good as it's going to get at this point? Do you keep looking for another programme that will work better for you?

Are you doing any smoothing of your prints with acetone, or are you satisfied with the surface results that you're getting already?

If you are smoothing with acetone, wat is the surface like? Does it become waxy and easily damaged?

Interesting timing... just started my Mendel build the other day. Working on the frame now, still gotta source and order all the bearings and then the electronics... I have an Arduino Mega kicking around here somewhere, so I think I'll be going the RAMPS route. I'm hoping to be done in January.

Rob, if you ever want to meet up to have a chat about this stuff at Ryerson just give me a shout.

I'm looking at something more like a complete setup, rather than building my own. I doubt that I'd make it any tougher than buying a complete kit. If I went the CNC route, instead, then I might consider building a rig. At this point I'm just kicking this idea around, but I might take you up on that offer in the future.

I started looking into this stuff because either technology would have been very useful in helping me to build the tools I'm using for another hobby; chainmail armour and jewellery making. I built my own coiling and ring cutting rigs using acrylic, high density polyethylene block, and high density fibre board and rather than using hand tools, CNC or 3D printing would have made their creation far easier and neater. Either would also be useful for making actual custom jewellery pieces by either creating positives for mold making, or actually creating the pieces.

Q2230199.JPG
 
I haven't made any changes to any of my settings in a long time. Could I play with it some more? Sure. Is it 100%? No, but its more than acceptable. Only thing I find I change is the fill % but that has more to do with strength vs time and material. If I know the part is ornamental or I need it quick, I reduce the infill to 25% from 45%.

Other than that I fire up the printer. Turn on the bed heater as the bed takes about 20 min to heat up. That's probably the only gripe I have. The heater is barely large enough to maintain 100c bed temp. If I wasn't lazy I'd switch to a 24v PS for the bed to get higher wattage.

If you want a prepare Mendel Prusa that you just plug in, calibrate and go, pm me. The guy is in Mississauga.

The price come with an evening of lessons on setup and use.


in regards to acetone surfacing. Again depending on my use. I use the heated acetone tank to "steam" the surface to a glass, porcelain consistency. It trades rigidity for flexibility. Once it's fully dried of acetone it goes to full strength. That does take up to a day though.

So far I've acetoned just a few parts. My 3d printer use is mostly utilitarian and looks aren't that important.
 
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Good to know about the acetone surfacing. There are times that I would want to get a 'plastic chrome' appearance and you sure don't chrome over a rough finish. Additionally, if the finish stayed soft, it would likely fall apart after coating.

Could I ask how much you paid for yours, all in?
 
Good to know about the acetone surfacing. There are times that I would want to get a 'plastic chrome' appearance and you sure don't chrome over a rough finish. Additionally, if the finish stayed soft, it would likely fall apart after coating.

Could I ask how much you paid for yours, all in?

$800, plus filament

I worked it out, and at the time, costs of parts was in the vicinity of $550 (plus shipping etc). So a little bit extra i got an assembled one, and also expertise on starting up. Nothing like being able to call someone up and troubleshoot the issue away.
 
That's not bad at all. A Printrbot Simple kit runs $400.00 plus shipping/taxes and it's $100.00 more for the assembled version. I was looking at their top end unit, at $900.00++, because they're about to release a dual filament version.
 
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