30m for recirculating or 4 storeys. That exempts most houses.
How`s your house pricing doing?..
- Thread starter Glenn/RZ500
- Start date
Mad Mike
Well-known member
Recirculating is simple and not that expensive, a pump plus a length of pipe in new construction, or a crossover valve in existing construction. It’s also great for outbuildings as it offers some freeze protection. It’s also a great convenience upgrade.
Dirty Frank
Well-known member
On the flip side tho don't be so cheap as to have things like residential grade receptacles in you place.
The extra couple of dollars each for spec/commercial grade receptacles is a no brainer.
Some of that stuff is also expensive to maintain.
I'm a supporter of passive systems so the 2X6 walls and insulation are OK.
Building materials are subject to inflation like everything else so copper pipe and wire are a necessary evil. A 4000 SF house has ~ twice the evil of a 2000 footer.
Heat recovery systems, mixer valves, sprinkler systems, active solar systems etc all require maintenance which is money you can't put towards the mortgage payment. If they are complex it means $150 to $200 an hour for service.
Granite looks like crap if it doesn't get a spa day once or twice a year so, in comes the guy with a buffer. $150 taps don't look right so to balance the posh factor the taps are 5X the price.
To maintain the posh balance throughout the house all trim in all the rooms have to be posh. If you don't do it, the plain rooms stand out like a half iced cake.
The tax man notices how expensive your house looks and smiles.
What does a couple need in a house?
My cousins had a place in Rochester NY when Kodak was solid. No kids but they entertained a lot in their story and a half, three bedroom detached.
It had a 30 ampere 120 volt service, two fuses. One circuit did lights and the other did receptacles. The stove and clothes drier were gas and the furnace gas with no fan. It relied on convection. Other than going through a lot of fuses when someone tried making toast and tea at the same time it worked fine. You had to be patient.
You also had to be aware of what other people were doing in the house so no toast or tea if someone is drying their hair. You also had to think about usage.
Labour rates are high so your DIY efforts, if done right, pay you higher rates. You get your hands dirty but the tens of thousands you save buys a lot of soap.
Inflation is dependent on inflated egos and too many people have distorted expectations expectations.
How about roofs? A nice simple gable roof with all the same rafters and two simple planes to shingle. Instead all the new McMansions have roofs with more peaks and vallies than an EKG readout. A sea of complicated rafters with every change in plane an opportunity for leaks.
Yup...seeing lots of roofs with so many sides/edges/slopes that it's got to be a nightmare to do.
Ours is simple....2 roofs with fairly small slopes.
Time to start saving.
410001661
Well-known member
x2.....the builders grade receptacles, switches and dimmers are garbage.
Plugs/switches I like Leviton or Eaton and dimmers I use nothing but Lutron (Caseta - no one every complained about a little more $$ for lighting controls)
410001661
Well-known member
I sat on the Electro Federation for years and was a voting member when manufacturers spearheaded by Eaton, Schneider, Siemens and GE, to get the CE Code changed to require ACFI's in bedroom circuits - their reasoning was bedrooms had dressers that usually had things plugged in behind them and if the plug did not have a 90 degree connector you could get a series arcing fault and it could lead to a fire.
Once it was in for bedroom circuits it was just a matter of time it was required in 90% of the locations. Could not blame manufacturers - single pole breakers went from $15 to $50.....that is good business
While I haven't personally had an AFCI fail, I would be shocked if they lasted as long as dumb breakers. So more money up front and some recurring revenue.
We had an electrician in the house for a fairly complicated project , logistically ridiculous ceiling fan , in chatting he said the proliferation of Chinese LED light fixtures and econo dimmers have become a serious revenue source for his service work . The Amazon lighting and Home Depot fixturing is mostly awful and the three pack of dimmers for eight bucks is just a fire hazard regardless of who’s “ cert sticker “ is on it
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Mad Mike
Well-known member
That’s my experience too. I don’t think safety is the main issue, it’s electrical noise. A lot of this stuff is electrically noisy and that doesn’t play nice with AFCI, sometimes with each other.
I recall a member here had noise issues with leds and dimmers a while back.
We had a RockFish Bluetooth speaker setup , installed USB outlet in the same room , USB Mini transformer created so much noise the RockFish would not function. My first experience with that sort of stuff , I understand it’s pretty common.
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I did 120v AFCI for the entire house other than the fridge, smoke alarms, and boiler... No issues with nuisance trips, years and years on. No trips for the everyday stuff, my power tools, old table saw, ancient mower, not even my 120v welder. Square D QO... The key, use the screws on the devices (no backstabbing), use quality outlets, proper connections, don't use garbage power bars or garbage noisy smart whatever junk, etc.
The trip I did have turned out to be a defective NMSC cable that was leaking current neutral to ground. To be fair it was a bugger to figure out, many "pros" might have just swapped to a normal breaker and blamed witchcraft.
The trip I did have turned out to be a defective NMSC cable that was leaking current neutral to ground. To be fair it was a bugger to figure out, many "pros" might have just swapped to a normal breaker and blamed witchcraft.
410001661
Well-known member
Yes......early chips in AFCI's needed to be altered because they tripped on sine wave signatures of a series fault, which was also similar to exaust fan motors vacuums, and drills.
Invent something, patent it, lobby the government to legislate sales. Your problem is the inventing.
410001661
Well-known member
There are all kinds of inventions and we get approached on a monthly bases on the next 'sliced bread' invention. The real issue is the burden in the cost of getting an idea to market, find manufacturing in a country that will not rip it off, the cost of getting UL/CSA, the cost of lobbying for a code change. It is just way easier selling the patient to an established manufacturer.Invent something, patent it, lobby the government to legislate sales. Your problem is the inventing.
Saw stop tried to force all table saws to use their technology. Thankfully they failed. While I think the technology is interesting, because they are evil, I will never buy one. If I used a table saw in a commercial environment, the line is murkier as claims cost a fortune.
410001661
Well-known member
When you can see massive profits under the guise of safety there is an issue. Safety is important, but if a company has a monopoly on the technology and will be the only player the safeguard is that other voting manufacturers will in most cases vote the proposal down. That is why AFCI's easily passed was because all panel manufacturers could participate in the new market they created.
In fact the only groups opposing this code change was the wiring device manufacturers (Leviton and Hubbell) because one can still use a AFCI plug and meet code but it the AFCI plug needs to be located adjacent to the panel and be fed using armored cable (BX) and the load of the receptacle can feed additional circuits with traditional Romex.
It did not work out well for them
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