Anybody wanna go to Niagara??? | GTAMotorcycle.com

Anybody wanna go to Niagara???

mimico_polak

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Or more specifically St Catherines!? LOL


This is great for those that are coming in FROM St. Catherines to Toronto to work (if the idea floats (get it?)) ... but IMO totally useless for a night trip to Niagara Falls as it's still a long way to go to see the falls.

Wasn't there a ferry previously that tried this and failed miserably?

These types of commutes are useless if they don't get you TO THE ACTUAL DESTINATION!
 
It has been tried and failed before.... few different variations.

There are a few usual problems. Port Weller to Ontario Place doesn't get commuters to ideal locations. Next is the cost, not stated but this will be a big factor. Finally, risk of it lasting, if you rely on this will it really run practically everyday (weather) and will it be in business next year?

On the first point, Ontario Place is not really downtown and a decent hike to transit. Going the other way Port Weller doesn't do much for tourists but there is limited options on that end. Docking in the harbour on the TO end would be better....

Cost, we do not know.... but it has to be comparable to GO or car which it may be... BUT unless you live in Port Weller you have to have a car.

On the last point car or GO have their own issues but it needs to be at least as reliable as employers don't like, sorry boat was down today on a regular basis... There is a long runway before people trust it enough to make it the main option (or say move to Niagara).
 
It has been tried and failed before.... few different variations.

There are a few usual problems. Port Weller to Ontario Place doesn't get commuters to ideal locations. Next is the cost, not stated but this will be a big factor. Finally, risk of it lasting, if you rely on this will it really run practically everyday (weather) and will it be in business next year?

On the first point, Ontario Place is not really downtown and a decent hike to transit. Going the other way Port Weller doesn't do much for tourists but there is limited options on that end. Docking in the harbour on the TO end would be better....

Cost, we do not know.... but it has to be comparable to GO or car which it may be... BUT unless you live in Port Weller you have to have a car.

On the last point car or GO have their own issues but it needs to be at least as reliable as employers don't like, sorry boat was down today on a regular basis... There is a long runway before people trust it enough to make it the main option (or say move to Niagara).
I agree. Like the rest of the previous incarnations it's probably dead in the water. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results never works.

It would be interesting to see if it could get an anchor tenant to make it viable. I am thinking huge condo development on the Niagara end with shuttles to ferry (hell, maybe even include ferry pass in fees?). Would the condos be cheap enough for people to think about moving from Toronto? I still don't know if that is enough to make it viable long-term so those that moved and expected to commute could get screwed. Maybe get niagara resorts to run shuttles and pickup ferry passes as part of their packages? Show up to Ontario place, enjoy the weekend in Niagara, get dropped off at OP sunday night? Casinos have subsidized busses for decades to get people in.
 
On the risk of it being around side.... while I get people want 100% private sector but IMO this can be mitigated if it is part of the GO system (at least perception).... maybe a PPP to get it going. Still not perfect but people will feel much better it will be around. The advantage of this is expected 10 year ROI vs a short 4 year...

At the same time GO does reduce and cancel routes, like everything in life no guarantees.
 
On the risk of it being around side.... while I get people want 100% private sector but IMO this can be mitigated if it is part of the GO system (at least perception).... maybe a PPP to get it going. Still not perfect but people will feel much better it will be around. The advantage of this is expected 10 year ROI vs a short 4 year...

At the same time GO does reduce and cancel routes, like everything in life no guarantees.
I don't think the price is viable. Rail is one of the cheapest ways to move things (operationally, initial capital cost for land is astronomical), hovercraft is one of the most expensive. They are predicting this will only cost $10 more each way? No way in hell.

I can't find a size of the Hoverlink craft quickly. 180 passengers. For comparison, the LCAC could move about 540 people for 1000 gallons/hour average. Assume fuel scales linearly with load that puts this one at ~300 gallons/hour. A 30 minute trip burns ~$1,100 in fuel (Assume diesel at 1.90/L for 567L). Maintenance will probably be on the same order of magnitude. Then you have ports and labour on top as well as tens of millions in capital costs. A full load of passengers would generate 180*30=$5,400. Most of the time, it would be far from full (I expect it would be like commuting where at half the trips are almost empty). Luhoooser.

For comparison, there is one commercially operating hovercraft ferry. Isle of Wight, 10 minute ride, 30 pounds per person. That's about $45 CDN. Scale the trip to 30 minutes and you are looking at $270 round trip per person to be commercially viable. That sounds about right to me from a cost perspective. It obviously will have very few takers. For far less than that I can fly from YYT (or YKZ or CNC3) to YCM. It is probably in the same ballpark price wise as a helicopter (hovercraft will be a little cheaper but you have to deal with longer connections at each end). I know of a few people that routinely chopper back and forth but it is a handful, not the 3M trips a year these blowhards are spouting.

EDIT:
Relevant similar failed venture in Alaska. Expensive to operate, grounded by weather often (obviously worse weather than here).


"The hovercraft is way too expensive to operate, and has problems," said Rick Gifford, manager of the Aleutians East Borough, which owns and operates the vessel that rides above the water on a cushion of air between the new airport on Akun Island, and the village and seafood processing hub of Akutan about seven miles away.

The future is a helicopter or landing craft. The two options are actively under consideration, and a decision should be made soon based on cost, he said. The hovercraft costs $3 million a year to operate, and only brings in $500,000.

The borough hopes the replacement transport, helicopter or boat, will get the job done for $1 million a year, Gifford said.
 
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Every time these ideas come up I always think of this…


Why not just put the money into improving the transit we have? Rail is there. Trains are available. Infrastructure is built.

Focus on efficiency improvements and express travel routes and you’re way ahead.
 
Every time these ideas come up I always think of this…


Why not just put the money into improving the transit we have? Rail is there. Trains are available. Infrastructure is built.

Focus on efficiency improvements and express travel routes and you’re way ahead.
Yup. Express train from niagara to union would be far cheaper to operate and capital cost is close to zero.
 
Problem with getting more rail transit is the rails are owned by CN and CP and they don’t share well . GO only gets so much track time .

Yes a hovercraft has been tried . A steam ship ran for yrs as did a Hamilton/ Toronto steamship . There was also a Kitchener to Toronto high speed train and a Hamilton to Toronto high speed train in the 1900s killed off by the car .
A Toronto to Rochester ferry started about a decade ago and lasted 2 weeks in service . I predict this hovercraft will be dead in a yr if it takes that long .


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Problem with getting more rail transit is the rails are owned by CN and CP and they don’t share well . GO only gets so much track time .

Yes a hovercraft has been tried . A steam ship ran for yrs as did a Hamilton/ Toronto steamship . There was also a Kitchener to Toronto high speed train and a Hamilton to Toronto high speed train in the 1900s killed off by the car .
A Toronto to Rochester ferry started about a decade ago and lasted 2 weeks in service . I predict this hovercraft will be dead in a yr if it takes that long .


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Metrolinx bought a lot (but not all) of their lines. Freight travels when metrolinx doesnt need the line (overnight). They own lakeshore from oshawa to burlington. Burlington to NF is owned by CN.
 
If your ever just north of lakeshore south of Rebecca in Oakville you can see the concrete piers from the old high speed electric train in the river beds by Bronte and 16 mile creek , tracks got ripped out and the land sold off , no one needed a train , Henry Ford solved that problem.
Europe kept all the lines and added to them, we ripped them out . So close…..


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If your ever just north of lakeshore south of Rebecca in Oakville you can see the concrete piers from the old high speed electric train in the river beds by Bronte and 16 mile creek , tracks got ripped out and the land sold off , no one needed a train , Henry Ford solved that problem.
Europe kept all the lines and added to them, we ripped them out . So close…..


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For those in the west end of Toronto the "bouncy" bridge on the Humber trail (crossing the Humber) just south of the CP line and north of Dundas.... The concrete piers that is built on are from the old Guelph Radial Line bridge over the Humber... There are other signs of that old line along the hydro corridor near Dundas through there...

It is sad that much of this and other passenger rail lines were torn out long ago. I am a huge fan of exploring and looking up the history of these things...
 
I'll pay $60 if it will take me and my bike to the Niagara area to ride for a day and avoid riding QEW.
 
I'll pay $60 if it will take me and my bike to the Niagara area to ride for a day and avoid riding QEW.
Motorbike or bicycle? It sounds like it is a passenger ferry and would be shocked if motor vehicles were accommodated.
 
I'll pay $60 if it will take me and my bike to the Niagara area to ride for a day and avoid riding QEW.
Pretty sure there is a GO train for that exact purpose right now.

People ride to Niagara and take the train back from my understanding.
 
Pretty sure there is a GO train for that exact purpose right now.

People ride to Niagara and take the train back from my understanding.
Bicycles, yes. Motorbikes, no. Now, could get get a Suron on? Probably. Terrorize niagara for a bit and then escape on the train.

 
Apparently Pinball Clemens is behind the group organizing this hovercraft . That should work out fine .
Booking my ticket in the first week they are open since weeks three and four will be sketchy. 48 trips per day , 180 people per run . I’m clearly missing something here


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